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Author | Topic: The Atheist Experience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I said:
quote: Tangle responded:
quote: But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence. So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"? Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"? I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Diomedes said:
quote: So it is about belief and not evidence? Diomedes then said:
quote: Primeval mythology is undeniably the work of man, and based on little observation among the ancients. But there does seem to be legitimate evidence of actual observations of "spirits" and "visions" and "voices", and the "Holy Books" aren't quite as easy to dismiss in all their details (and implications) as modern rationalizations rather simply make everything out to be. But back to the evidence verses belief and people's self-described theo-ideological labels Diomedes said:
quote: Well, at least SOME people recognize the devil is in the details. Not to many will put their self-described (via a label) "faith" to the test. The really odd thing is that we all honestly "don't know". We should all be forced to say "I don't know" or "We don't know".
quote: 'the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable'? The last 2 words sound really dogmatic. The "unknowable" part really is a discussion stopper. There will be no need for any further testing in that case. Each man to his own "beliefs" and damn the person who asks for a discussion of evidence.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4440 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence. So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"? Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"? I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean. I always have trouble figuring out why people have to make something as simple as atheism into a complex, absolutely defined, totally fucking structured world view. Why do you care what happens in other people's minds? My atheism is based on the complete lack of a shred of evidence of any supernatural entities, period. When I was around 12 it became obvious to me that the bible was refuted by evidence that even a kid could figure out. Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people and God doesn't give a shit and is batshit crazy anyway.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: But the Biblical text had observations. Just like the Canaanite texts. And we need to put them to the test in every way we can think of. (Not just simply say they have lines about only bad people getting cursed and only good people getting blessings and prosperity). Look at the issue of blood seemingly being described as the "soul". It led to the "Ecto Plasma" theory of past centuries. What about the Canaanite fertility rites? This is often described as sacred prostitution. (More on what that has to do with scientific examination later) But see this blog argue that it is false history to say Canaanites had sacred prostitution. Kinaani Here is an interesting bit from the blog.
quote: Singing not screwing. (I found this site, above, by putting CANAANITE TEXTS ON FERTILITY into a Bing search engine using Google Chrome) It helps to understand what the old religions might actually be saying. I just noticed that Marcus Vogel, and his polygraph stuff, has apparently been falsified. Robert Anton Wilson book claim:
quote: Humans having sex to successfully stimulate plants? False! (it seems anyway) But what about human interaction in other ways? Like the Canaanites perhaps SINGING TO PLANTS? "playing music to plants polygraph" was put into the Bing search engine. I found: Does Music Affect Plant Growth? | Sciencing "plants grow faster with people" was put into Bing I found: Talking to Plants Can Help Them Grow Faster Music Can Help Your Plants Grow....seriously? - SiOWfa12: Science in Our World: Certainty and Controversy https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200810300501... The blog had questions about whether females had a role in Canaanite fertility rituals. But singing seemed to be indicated by the evidence. NOW ON TO ATHEISM. Tanypteryx said:
quote: I would respond that there are things we can't understand and haven't begun to understand. But modern-day kids (whether 12 or 17) might not be able to grasp everything about the old religions of Canaan (like the Israelite religion for one). The Israelite and Canaanite folks seem to have had some sort of spiritual experience. There is evidence they at least had hallucinations (perhaps even on a mass level). And visions. I just don't think that their witness somehow shoots down the entire notion of a higher power existing (before the creation of our universe or coming to be after the start). You have this "Atheism" thing going based on some bad sermons you heard about good people prospering (which used parts of the ancient scriptures)
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4440 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
quote: But the Biblical text had observations. Just like the Canaanite texts. And we need to put them to the test in every way we can think of. (Not just simply say they have lines about only bad people getting cursed and only good people getting blessings and prosperity). Sorry, I was very unclear in what I said. I meant to break that into 2 paragraphs. I wasn't saying "Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people in the bible." I meant everywhere in real life and history and today. Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people all the time and we never see any god stop bad people from hurting good people. I'm an atheist and I don't need you to explain it to me and I don't give a shit if you understand it or not.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
LMNA writes: But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence. No one KNOWS whether there is a god. Everyone is agnostic about god. People only KNOW whether they believe in one or not.
So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"? No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s).
Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"? No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s). (And - by extension - the religions they are attached to.)
I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean. Agnosticism is a linguistic invention designed to obfuscate a lack of belief so as to make it acceptable in polite Victorian company. There are believers and non-believers, those that say they're agnostic, by definition, are not believers. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Agnosticism is a linguistic invention designed to obfuscate a lack of belief so as to make it acceptable in polite Victorian company. There are believers and non-believers, those that say they're agnostic, by definition, are not believers. Sort of, and that's how they are viewed in Christian theology too: your are an atheist if you aren't a believer, period. But I think some people are truly on the fence, not having any clear reason to believe but not being quite ready to throw away the idea altogether either.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: But I think some people are truly on the fence, not having any clear reason to believe but not being quite ready to throw away the idea altogether either. Sure, that describes most 'Christians' in the UK. But belief is binary; if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something.And if you're not a believer, you're an atheist. By definition. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something. That's the clearest that you have explained it. I can't know that I know since knowledge of such concepts is impossible. I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing! You got it, now get off your knees and go fishing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You shouldn't.
I trust my intuition. Phat writes:
Nobody should trust their own intuition. We ALL need confirmation. We often see things and hear things and intuit things that are not real. That's why one of the most common phrases is, "Did you see that?" You don't trust yours and need science to give you a reason to move forward. I asked you five questions and you answered one. Where does your intuition stand on the other four?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What does that mean? It means I trust what is comfortable. I trust what feels right. I don't like cognitive dissonance.
How do you distinguish "your own experience" from wishful thinking? Very carefully. I am well aware that wishful thinking is common in spiritual beliefs...but at the end of the day, it seems rational to believe in a friendly ghost rather than a hostile one. You would take it a step further and simply believe in verifiable reality rather than take the risk that any and all ghosts were illusions. I, on the other hand, find comfort in belief. If it ever became more trouble and pain than it was worth, I too might become an atheist...though I doubt I would feel happy without a Parental Deity type figure.
What if there was a scientific paper that showed you were not being mindful? Would you accept it? One of my goals is to become more mindful. This does not interfere with my belief except in regards to wishful thinking and fantasy vs reality. And again, how can I always trust reality? Part of me holds out for mystery and surprise. Perhaps it is one root of why I gambled.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Comfort is not a cure for cognitive dissonance.
It means I trust what is comfortable. I trust what feels right. I don't like cognitive dissonance. Phat writes:
Again, that seems more like a comfortable idea than a rational one.
it seems rational to believe in a friendly ghost rather than a hostile one. Phat writes:
How is that a risk?
You would take it a step further and simply believe in verifiable reality rather than take the risk that any and all ghosts were illusions. Phat writes:
How can you trust anything BUT reality?
And again, how can I always trust reality? Phat writes:
You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality. Part of me holds out for mystery and surprise.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality. Do you think that belief in God interferes with reality?Must it or merely can it? I think that for me, when I embraced belief it became subjectively real. Does unevidenced belief equate to wishful thinking? Is subjective evidence allowable as evidence in the court of public opinion? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
But belief is binary;
It isn't. There can be degrees of belief.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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