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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 69 of 283 (839796)
09-16-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
09-16-2018 9:48 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something.
That's the clearest that you have explained it. I can't know that I know since knowledge of such concepts is impossible. I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 9:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 11:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 283 (839811)
09-16-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-16-2018 2:11 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
What does that mean?
It means I trust what is comfortable. I trust what feels right. I don't like cognitive dissonance.
How do you distinguish "your own experience" from wishful thinking?
Very carefully. I am well aware that wishful thinking is common in spiritual beliefs...but at the end of the day, it seems rational to believe in a friendly ghost rather than a hostile one. You would take it a step further and simply believe in verifiable reality rather than take the risk that any and all ghosts were illusions. I, on the other hand, find comfort in belief. If it ever became more trouble and pain than it was worth, I too might become an atheist...though I doubt I would feel happy without a Parental Deity type figure.
What if there was a scientific paper that showed you were not being mindful? Would you accept it?
One of my goals is to become more mindful. This does not interfere with my belief except in regards to wishful thinking and fantasy vs reality. And again, how can I always trust reality? Part of me holds out for mystery and surprise. Perhaps it is one root of why I gambled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 2:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 283 (839816)
09-16-2018 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
09-16-2018 4:14 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality.
Do you think that belief in God interferes with reality?
Must it or merely can it?
I think that for me, when I embraced belief it became subjectively real.
Does unevidenced belief equate to wishful thinking? Is subjective evidence allowable as evidence in the court of public opinion?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-17-2018 11:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 283 (839870)
09-17-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
09-17-2018 11:49 AM


Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
There's no such thing as subjectively real.
Which explains why you never became born again...your insistence on objective evidence blinded you to allowing change. Perhaps you never wanted to let go of your control...and I can see an argument that supports your view. If everyone else drinks the kool-aid, ringo surely won't. You are honest with yourself and I can't fault you for that...but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-17-2018 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Diomedes, posted 09-17-2018 3:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 283 (839926)
09-19-2018 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-18-2018 4:48 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Faith writes:
Find a test. I found a few that aren't very apropos but I'm continuing to look.
Why not take Bob Altemeyer's test?
quote:
This survey is part of an investigation of general public opinion concerning a variety of social issues. You will probably find that you agree with some of the statements, and disagree with others, to varying extents. Please indicate your reaction to each statement on the line to the left of each item according to the following scale:
Write down a -4 if you very strongly disagree with the statement.
Write down a -3 if you strongly disagree with the statement.
Write down a -2 if you moderately disagree with the statement.
Write down a -1 if you slightly disagree with the statement.
Write down a +1 if you slightly agree with the statement.
Write down a +2 if you moderately agree with the statement.
Write down a +3 if you strongly agree with the statement.
Write down a +4 if you very strongly agree with the statement.
If you feel exactly and precisely neutral about an item, write down a 0.
("Dr. Bob" to reader: We’ll probably stay friends longer if you read this paragraph.) Important: You may find that you sometimes have different reactions to different parts of a statement. For example, you might very strongly disagree ("-4") with one idea in a statement, but slightly agree ("+1") with another idea in the same item. When this happens, please combine your reactions, and write down how you feel on balance (a "-3" in this case).
The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while the radicals and protestors are usually just "loudmouths showing off their ignorance.
Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.
Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.
Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.
It is always better to trust the judgment of the proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the noisy rabble-rousers in our society who are trying to create doubt in people’s minds
Atheists and others who have rebelled against the established religions are no doubt every bit as good and virtuous as those who attend church regularly.
The only way our country can get through the crisis ahead is to get back to our traditional values, put some tough leaders in power, and silence the troublemakers spreading bad ideas.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps.
Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy traditional ways, even if this upsets many people.
Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at our moral fiber and traditional beliefs.
Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different from everyone else.
The "old-fashioned ways and the "old-fashioned values still show the best way to live.
You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority’s view by protesting for women’s abortion rights, for animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.
What our country really needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush evil, and take us back to our true path.
Some of the best people in our country are those who are challenging our government, criticizing religion, and ignoring the "normal way things are supposed to be done.
God’s laws about abortion, pornography and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those who break them must be strongly punished.
There are many radical, immoral people in our country today, who are trying to ruin it for their own godless purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.
A "woman’s place should be wherever she wants to be. The days when women are submissive to their husbands and social conventions belong strictly in the past.
Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, do what the authorities tell us to do, and get rid of the "rotten apples who are ruining everything.
There is no "ONE right way to live life; everybody has to create their own way.
Homosexuals and feminists should be praised for being brave enough to defy "traditional family values.
This country would work a lot better if certain groups of troublemakers would just shut up and accept their group’s traditional place in society.
To score the test, go to page 13 of Altemeyer's book, the link is at the top of this message. I scored 44.(in 2009)
Are you an authoritarian? Take the test and find out!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 4:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 09-19-2018 1:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 283 (839932)
09-19-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
09-18-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Tangle, addressing Faith writes:
You've already failed the test. It was how you deal with bias when considering evidence. Especially evidence that you have a personal stake in. Not only did you fail, but you also refused to learn about it and how to deal with it. You haven't even read the research on what it is.
You're avoiding learning how to think critically and rationally and you've demonstrated that you can't.
You do have a point in regards to subjective evidenced beliefs and how we do have a personal stake in them. It may well be that no believer can totally throw it all away in order to think critically. I try, but I won't simply let go of my strongly held beliefs in order to arrive at some possible truth which I don't trust nor feel comfortable with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 4:37 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-19-2018 1:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 283 (864694)
10-15-2019 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-10-2018 3:58 PM


Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Tangle writes:
Quite apart from the fact that the thing you call god doesn't exist, there is no way you could know a supernatural being if it did.
Unless the alleged supernatural Being provided a method where humanity could interact with it. You know the story.
Tangle writes:
Maybe it would help if you stopped using the word 'evidence' when you're saying that things are subjective and impersonal it would help.
Fine. Subjective unverifiable experience then. And I then resort to the Appeal To Popularity. Critics seem to equate belief in God as a belief that is as irrational as belief in Odin, or Spaghetti Monsters or Bigfoots. But when was the last time you even heard an argument from *anyone* defending the viability of a premise that any of them existed? Why is it a logical fallacy to invoke popularity? Surely the fact that so many seek to defend Christianity somehow correlates to a reason why it is something worth defending.
Tangle writes:
That's not evidence of anything other than you personally believe something. Billions of people believe billions of dumb things, you don't believe most of them, but they do.
When I say things like that you just shrug, it doesn't seem to matter to you that what you believe has nothing to do with anything other than the time and place you were born.
yes. I know. But it is more than blind chance, in my opinion. Christianity won't go away anytime soon...despite your hopes. When society breaks, rationality goes out the window. And don't accuse me of wanting chaos to occur. I will argue that it is cyclical and inevitable.
The closer that humanity gets to a godless society, the closer we also get to extinction. Odd that.
On a side note from the "other side" note this interaction between Matt Dillahunty and his fundamentalist parents. It explains to me why people like Theodoric hate Christianity so much.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2019 5:18 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 5:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 283 (864716)
10-15-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Diomedes
10-15-2019 9:53 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
OK, I'll concede your point. In retrospect, all that I am trying to do is to convince everyone that there should be a way to test the validity of beliefs apart from evidence. The reason being, invisible Deities are not evident. But why does this mean that they should thus be objectively dismissed? What you atheists have essentially done is take your minority representation in the wider debate and, using the criteria of evidence, making it the default position for judging the validity of all beliefs.
Quite a clever trick, but hardly the final word.
You can't simply say that all believers are delusional simply because they don't have any objective evidence. After all, if God exists, it does not mean that God needs to be objective towards the human population. Belief seems to be a discovery...an epiphany on the journey of life that causes one to believe.
It appears obvious that belief is not objective nor was ever meant to be objective. Granted this gives you every right to question it and doubt it. What is does not do is give the default position as a responsibility for any rational mind to objectively dismiss.
Reading back over my post, I sometimes wonder why we take all of the effort to win this argument. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do if you were trying to convince a group of people that your belief was rational and yet had no objective evidence...would you simply give up and talk about football and politics with them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Diomedes, posted 10-15-2019 9:53 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:05 PM Phat has replied
 Message 117 by Diomedes, posted 10-16-2019 9:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 283 (864721)
10-15-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tangle
10-15-2019 4:05 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 283 (864723)
10-15-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tangle
10-15-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Im starting a fast. This doubt needs to get resolved. Stay tuned. Fast started at 9am today. Water only. Doctor is aware. Worry not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:29 PM Tangle has not replied

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 Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2019 7:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 283 (864814)
10-17-2019 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by AZPaul3
10-17-2019 1:22 AM


Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
And as such your exclusivity is broken since everyone else has an inside their own head as well.
I think I see your point. At best, even God is exclusive to Himself. He is mos def not inclusive within all people, vibes, and spirits. Because of free will we all have access to our own brand. Call it philosophies, world views or zeitgeists.
The kicker is that reality is not always as it seems. Some may imagine that reality is what it is...measurable, predictable, definable. And that religions and untested beliefs are but fantasies. If you were to encounter a man who claimed to speak to napoleon, you could prematurely conclude that he *must* be delusional since napoleon does not currently exist. if this same man claimed to *be* napoleon, you could conclude the same thing. Faiths point is that you yourself use science as a crutch to claim to be all-knowing. (Within the limits of what can be known.) But your exclusivity is as much limited to yourself as hers is to her.
I respect the argument. Many have used it against Christians who push an exclusive truth claim by pushing back with the exclusivity of science.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by AZPaul3, posted 10-17-2019 1:22 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 283 (864819)
10-17-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
10-16-2019 11:58 PM


Scriptural Support for my argument
In my previous post, I attempted to show AZ Paul that his exclusive truth claims are no more valid than yours. He laughingly dismisses Christian belief as fantasy since no God can be objectively produced for the all-knowing and all-wise secular mind to review.
I can understand your frustration. They have never experienced the same things as you have. It is easier for them to label you crazy than it is for them to consider the premise which you argue. It bothered me as well until I searched the scripture to verify what I just said to AZ Paul. My claim was that God is exclusive and is never meant to be inclusive. His counterclaim is that he is as exclusive as you or I claim to be. But there is only one God. Secular wisdom will never construct an exclusive reality that does not include God as we know Him.
John 6:28-29 writes:
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NKJV
ringo and jar advocate simply doing the message...."working the works" so to speak. I have never argued that this is wrong. My beef with them is that they preach that God is absent, un-necessary, and something to be thrown away. Jesus says that the work of God is to believe first and foremost.
Much of your studies have been in the writings of the early church fathers. What are our critics going to claim? That they simply made this stuff uop or had some ulterior motive to slang religion and manipulate the people? Granted there are bad apples in every bunch and Christianity has had its share of bad apples. But they ignore the good ones.
ringo claims that I have yet to find a *good* and *honest* apologist. But they judge others in ways that they do not judge themselves. Yes, Ravi inappropriately answered emails from a woman seeking to entrap him and sue him. Yes, he lied about his honorary degree. Does this make his teaching of no value? That he is human and sins? Look at Richard Carrier, a self admitted sinner:
Several years ago, after about seventeen years of marriage, I had a few brief affairs, because I found myself unequipped to handle certain unusual circumstances in our marriage, which I won’t discuss here because they intrude on my wife’s privacy. In the process of that I also came to realize I can’t do monogamy and be happy. Since this was going to come to light eventually, about two years ago I confessed all of this ...
OK so to Carriers credit, he confessed his indiscretions where Ravi tried to cover his up. My point is that we cannot dismiss the teachings of one man while continuing to support the teachings of the other. Look at Carriers Bio:
quote:
Richard Carrier is the renowned author of several books including Sense and Goodness without God and Proving History, as well as numerous articles online and in print. His avid readers span the world from Hong Kong to Poland. With a Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University, he specializes in the modern philosophy of naturalism and humanism, the origins of Christianity, and the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, with particular expertise in ancient philosophy, science and technology. He has also become a noted defender of scientific and moral realism, Bayesian reasoning, and the epistemology of history.
The opponents of Christianity and of the philosophy presented by jesus are abundant. We are in a spiritual war of ideology.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 11:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-17-2019 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 283 (864820)
10-17-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-17-2019 9:45 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
jar writes:
Science claims no exclusivity and in fact is based on the premise that assertions should be questioned until supported by overwhelming evidence and independent confirmation and then only held tentatively pending future discoveries.
I claim the same grace be given to scriptural arguments. What is your response to my assertion that Beliving in God is more sensible than throwing Him away?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:04 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 283 (864823)
10-17-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-17-2019 10:04 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
Truth is not inclusive. You were taught wrong.
Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you would know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides Him.
Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore this day and take to heart that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.
1 Corinthians 8:6-- yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Throw Ganesh away. Throw Coyote away. Throw all of the inclusive garbage that you "learned" in Sacred Studies away. You were misled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 283 (864841)
10-17-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
10-17-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Faith, to ringo, jar, AZPaul3, and the pantheon of EvC Skeptics writes:
All one can do with this kind of truth is proclaim it. It can't be proved.
Amen, Sister. But you have to admit that discussions with our fellow internet bloggers is forcing us to reexamine our arguments and sharpen our responses. They are very useful to me. They force me to better frame my arguments and to know when I've hit a wall.
Keep them in prayer. If they ever did become believers they would be very good ones.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 12:02 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
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