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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Oh we've got many, many more than that Faith. And, of course, quite a lot of them were Catholic too.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You have it backwards (no surprises there). Primates and donkeys branched from the same mammal root but primates evolved more intelligence. I wonder how many years of evolution have to take place before such an opinion could graduate up to the level of asinine.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We have discussed these topics at length many times here at EvC and still have not resolved our basic differences regarding our particular Christian beliefs, dogmas, and literal interpreted meanings which are the basis for our faith.
I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning. To merely anthropomorphize God as a God/Man means that His sacrifice was no big deal, according to you. To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will. If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning. To merely anthropomorphize God as a God/Man means that His sacrifice was no big deal, according to you. To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will. If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet. And that is where the Mat 25 story is important. You cannot earn forgiveness through works but you can loose forgiveness by NOT doing works. I believe that after I die I will be judged and understand I have absolutely no way to know the outcome of such judgement until it happens. That means no matter what I believe, no matter what I profess, no matter what I claim, I will never know beforehand any outcome. So what can I know? I can know that what Jesus (and Buddha and Confucius and Mencius and Lao Tzu and many others) taught, that I should do what I can to help others while I'm alive, is my sole duty. That at least makes life today slightly better for all.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh we've got many, many more than that Faith. And, of course, quite a lot of them were Catholic too. My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning.... As you go on to say Jesus was no FALLIBLE human being, he was the only perfectly sinless human being since Adam and Eve prior to the Fall. He did not inherit the sin of the Fall since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was therefore a sinless man. Capable of being tempted by the sin that tempts all of us but strong enough to resist it.
To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will. True, we're all fallen, and all it takes is one little sin to send us to Hell because God is holy and cannot have sin in His presence. Jesus had to be perfectly sinless in order to qualify to be the Mediator between humanity and God, whose death could pay for our sins. He had to be "without blemish" as the animals were required to be that were sacrificed for the sins of the people in Old Testament Israel. One sin would have disqualified Him.
If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet. That argument is utterly unscriptural. What I say above can be documented in scripture.; Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too. No-one has special knowledge Faith. No-one. All everyone is doing is a form of literary criticism of you book and making stuff up about it that they like or dislike. There is nothing else to go on.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too. No-one has special knowledge Faith. No-one. This hits me as a bizarrre non sequitur. What ARE you trying to say? If you were at all familiar with any of those on my list I don't see how you could keep up this nonsense.
All everyone is doing is a form of literary criticism of you book and making stuff up about it that they like or dislike. There is nothing else to go on. It is so strange to see what you unbelievers come up with about something I've spent years studying and know to be amazingly consistent and full of complex layers of meaning. "Nothing else to go on?" You really have no idea what you are talking about. You decided some time or other that all religion is false I guess and you've got yourself so convinced of that you just continue to say stuff that fits with tht assumption and can't seem to take in any contrary information. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: It is so strange to see what you unbelievers come up with about something I've spent years studying and know to be amazingly consistent and full of complex layers of meaning. "Nothing else to go on?" You really have no idea what you are talking about. You decided some time or other that all religion is false I guess and you've got yourself so convinced of that you just continue to say stuff that fits with tht assumption and can't seem to take in any contrary information. The entirity of your belief system rest on one single book - a collection of short stories. The stories are folk tales, myth and legend. There's no reason why anyone would have anymore knowledge about what's written in there than anyone else. Istead, what you *do* have is a multitude of different personal opinions which can't be resolved but can be exploited. So much so that civilisations have clashed over them for thousands of years. It really is time we all grew up.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Unless of course God actually existed. Lets say that He did. Would you expect to understand Him? Would you find it silly that others claimed to have any sort of understanding? Maybe they were improving their understanding while you were off fishing. Or maybe while you were fishing you meditated peacefully and improved your understanding without you even being aware of what it was that you were gaining an understanding of. The entirety of your belief system rest on one single book - a collection of short stories. The stories are folk tales, myth, and legend. There's no reason why anyone would have any more knowledge about what's written in there than anyone else. Its all about belief. Forget evidence.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Unless of course God actually existed. Lets say that He did. Would you expect to understand Him? Would you find it silly that others claimed to have any sort of understanding? Maybe they were improving their understanding while you were off fishing. Or maybe while you were fishing you meditated peacefully and improved your understanding without you even being aware of what it was that you were gaining an understanding of. People are claiming knowledge of the book that's not in the book. Are you saying that god is talking to them privately, explaing things? If so why is Faith's position not the same as GDR's? Is he telling different people different stories? Is he lying to some? All?
Its all about belief. Forget evidence. If it's all about belief, then it's worthless as people can and do believe anything and everything and the paricular belief is merely a matter of birth.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why is belief worthless? It's a foregone conclusion that people will disagree.
You seem to think that for anything to be valid everyone has to agree on its substance.
what you *do* have is a multitude of different personal opinions which can't be resolved but can be exploited. So much so that civilizations have clashed over them for thousands of years. It really is time we all grew up. It is true we should be wary of exploitation. What I ask is "why does growing up involve abandoning all belief?" Belief serves a human purpose. It inspires. It fuels the imagination. It provides hope. It resolves inner angst (though in some cases it DOES cause it) Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Why are you avoiding answering my questions?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you saying that God is talking to them privately, explaining things? I don't believe that God usually gives us direct answers. He stimulates our thinking. We don't simply all receive one similar answer. If so why is Faith's position not the same as GDR's? Faith and GDR disagree in minor matters. Faith is highly dogmatic and her belief centers on strict Biblical Inerrancy as well as Gods infallible perfection. This leaves little room for discussion. GDR emphasizes Jesus as a living presence and disregards strict interpretation of the book as limiting and even idolatrous. Is he telling different people different stories? No. People make up their own stories based on what their inner perception is. Is he lying to some? No. They lie to themselves. All? Highly doubtful. If so, God is unlike what we have taught that He is. I can see why you would conclude that it is better to ignore Him altogether rather than risk finding out He is the wrong God!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Its all about belief. Forget evidence. And so Coyote and Jesus and Zeus and Satan and Raven and Allah and Ra and Thor and Aphrodite and Ganesha are all equally valid beliefs.
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