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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1557 of 1748 (840304)
09-26-2018 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1556 by ringo
09-26-2018 3:06 PM


Re: Is There Consensus On Who Are Goats And Who Are Sheep?
ringo writes:
Either every good person, believer or not, goes to heaven or your God is a vicious sadistic bastard
Its rather amusing to see you deciding what a God should be or do. I'll let that one go, however. Also...are we only talking about *good* people? If so, by definition we are excluding some.
Why would there need to be a protocol?
Lets get back to the guest analogy. We now have you indiscriminately inviting any and all guests in to stay the night or the week in your own house. Would you allow them to stay up all night and make noise? Would you allow them to raid the fridge and eat all your food...without prior consent? Would you allow them to invite others over? Would you essentially make them co-owners of your home? Should God be so free and easy as He allows everyone in the door?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1556 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1558 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1562 of 1748 (840312)
09-26-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1558 by ringo
09-26-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Is There Consensus On Who Are Goats And Who Are Sheep?
ringo writes:
What would you think of a human who caused a gigantic flood that killed millions of people? What would you think of a human who threatened to torture millions with fire? You'd have the same assessment of your God as I do if you weren't working so hard at doublethink.
In this case, I go with evidence. I do not see the stories as accurately nor actually representing GOD as to what He inferred to the humans of that time. I also see jars argument concerning the lack of evuidence of a bottleneck (hourglass shape) in the fossil record which would be the case if the flood were literal. That being said, I believe that as a parable the story stands on its own merits. It would make no sense for a God to need to do such a thing if in fact He foreknew the end result. And even if He did not, what would make Him think that the new people from Noah and family would behave any better than the old bunch did?(given a few generations) In conclusion, I dont see God as directly doing such things. The fact that it was written that way only means that the authors wrote it as they understood it...not necessarily how it was.
God is beyond word for word literalism. God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him. Understanding of God is still evolving as we learn more. Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him. We humans will never attain full potential without help.
We're talking about God here. Why would God be afraid of people eating his food?
The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority. You may describe Him as weak because of this, but the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1558 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1564 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1563 of 1748 (840313)
09-26-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1561 by ringo
09-26-2018 3:49 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important.
It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader. A house divided against itself will not stand. Thus, the cherub got booted. My argument concerning you opening your house to any and all carries the same potential problem. Some of whom you invite in will not listen to your house rules. Every house needs rules. Even if you were powerful enough to make all of them listen, your character would be such that you allow your guests autonomy. With autonomy comes the risk of rogues like satan rearing their rebellious little heads and running amuck.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1561 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1565 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1566 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 4:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1567 of 1748 (840317)
09-26-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1566 by jar
09-26-2018 4:08 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
So how does the Bible differ?
Revelation 12:7-9. writes:
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So it is clear that Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels went with him. (roughly...dont see a specific reference, but according to dogma)
I suppose you will argue that Satan is portrayed in Job as an instrument of God. I'll go with that also...but it still portrays the tempter as a temperer. Just as iron is tempered into steel, humans are tempered into hopefully better characters.
What better character to temper us than one who was a rebel in the first place. Sorta like an ex thief helping the police provide better security.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1566 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 4:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1572 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 5:48 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1568 of 1748 (840318)
09-26-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1565 by ringo
09-26-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
ringo writes:
God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand?
You are the one suggesting He let everyone in. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division.
If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.
The question is how COULD anybody override his authority?
Because He gave them free will. If you gave everyone living at your house free will, they may well eat all of your food, sleep in your bed, and flaunt your ownership. Of course, you being a socialist may mean that you gave your house up to the common good anyway. For the life of me....
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1565 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1569 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1570 of 1748 (840320)
09-26-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1569 by ringo
09-26-2018 4:42 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
phat writes:
If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.
ringo writes:
God can. What part of that do you not understand?
He can't without over riding their free will, which is what you never want Him to do to you. (assuming He exists) are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy? How would He accomplish this?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1569 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1571 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1573 of 1748 (840331)
09-27-2018 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1572 by jar
09-26-2018 5:48 PM


Yetzer Hara
From Wiki:
quote:
Satan, also known as the Devil, is an entity in the Abrahamic religions that seduces humans into sin or falsehood. In Christianity and Islam, he is usually seen as a fallen angel, or a jinni, who used to possess great piety and beauty but rebelled against God, who nevertheless allows him temporary power over the fallen world and a host of demons. In Judaism, Satan is typically regarded as a metaphor for the yetzer hara, or "evil inclination", or as an agent subservient to God.
To say that Satan is portrayed as an agent of God apparently originated in Judaism.
quote:
In Christianity, Satan is also known as the Devil and, although the Book of Genesis does not mention him, he is often identified as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. In medieval times, Satan played a minimal role in Christian theology and was used as a comic relief figure in mystery plays. During the early modern period, Satan's significance greatly increased as beliefs such as demonic possession and witchcraft became more prevalent. During the Age of Enlightenment, belief in the existence of Satan became harshly criticized. Nonetheless, belief in Satan has persisted, particularly in the Americas. In the Quran, Shaitan, also known as Iblis, is an entity made of fire who was cast out of Heaven because he refused to bow before the newly-created Adam and incites humans and jinn to sin by infecting their minds with waswās ("evil suggestions"). Although Satan is generally viewed as evil, some groups have very different beliefs.
Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1572 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 5:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1574 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 8:42 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1575 of 1748 (840395)
09-28-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1574 by jar
09-27-2018 8:42 AM


Re: Yetzer Hara
why do you consider yourself more Christian than Jewish? Do you see any Jewish beliefs that you have internalized? How are they similar to your Christian beliefs? Is it all one religion to you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1574 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 8:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1576 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 6:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1577 of 1748 (840426)
09-29-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1576 by jar
09-28-2018 6:52 PM


Re: Yetzer Hara
jar writes:
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all based on the same God character, the same set of stories, the same basic morality system.
The ongoing question which we may never find an anser to is whether our ideas and beliefs about said "God character" reflect in any way the actual GOD.
Does He care what we think and believe or only what we do? Does He(She,It) care about us any more than pond scum?
Will we ever know?
Does our obsession with needing to know how GOD thinks indicative of our own need to control things more than finding our Cosmic Daddy?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1576 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 6:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1578 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:22 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1582 by candle2, posted 01-31-2019 10:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1579 of 1748 (840431)
09-29-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1578 by jar
09-29-2018 12:22 PM


Re: Yetzer Hara
jar writes:
Most folk don't have such a need or fill it by creating and worshiping the God they imagine.
I've often wondered how you label the Christian Culture of what you call "Willful Ignorance"...and this group appears to be quite large.
Among them are people whom I respect as being quite inciteful regarding their own personal beliefs and the rationale behind them.
You have always attempted to teach that there is no way that anyone can actually know what GOD thinks while we are alive. You have also dismissed most if not all of those who profess Christian apologetics.
Matt Dillahunty would agree with you to a large extent.
You seem to be ok with not knowing.
I agree that it is more about belief than knowledge. My belief insists upon a God Who cares. You seem to have no such need.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1578 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1580 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:56 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1581 of 1748 (840507)
10-01-2018 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1580 by jar
09-29-2018 12:56 PM


Re: Yetzer Hara
jar writes:
The issue is no one has ever explained how it might be possible to know anything about any supernatural thing or event.
So an angel appears to someone. (or a UFO, for that matter) and they are fully aware that they have experienced something unexplainable. They may well attribute it to a supernatural event,then..but can never know? See...I disagree with this idea that the atheists and you guys cling to that evidence is the only standard. Why can't experience count?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1580 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:56 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1583 of 1748 (848064)
01-31-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1582 by candle2
01-31-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Yetzer Hara
There is only one problem that the critics reasonable have with the sacrifice.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1582 by candle2, posted 01-31-2019 10:25 AM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1584 by ringo, posted 01-31-2019 11:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1585 of 1748 (848067)
01-31-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1584 by ringo
01-31-2019 11:07 AM


Re: Yetzer Hara
I forget you can't see videos. It is essentially a video of Matt Dillahunty expounding on this:
It does sound rather convoluted. Christians at church would not so much as entertain this question. In my opinion, it is a valuable question to put on the list of questions for God to answer.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1584 by ringo, posted 01-31-2019 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1586 by ringo, posted 01-31-2019 11:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1587 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2019 12:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1592 of 1748 (848172)
02-01-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1591 by Tangle
02-01-2019 8:42 AM


Incredulous Drivel
tangle writes:
...But it SHOULD matter to Phat because he believes something that makes no sense to anyone - a god kills himself to pay for the sins that he didn't commit. What utter drivel.
The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...knock yourselves out! I dont know what you find so silly about a Creator of all who has the capability of communing with us. No sillier than us communicating with some slime alien at some point in the future...what fun that will be!
In summation, granted some of the Christian mythos is incredulous. Granted much makes no sense.
But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1591 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 8:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1594 by ringo, posted 02-01-2019 10:47 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1595 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2019 10:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1596 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2019 1:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1597 of 1748 (848195)
02-01-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1594 by ringo
02-01-2019 10:47 AM


Re: Incredulous Drivel
Im talking about our prospects after death. (physical death here in this world)
You will likely argue that the only death we have evidence for is that.
Using evidence as your core belief (seeing is believing) you will stop speculating on any hypotheticals, citing loch ness and Loki as equally likely as a Creator of all seen and unseen who can and will commune with us at some point

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by ringo, posted 02-01-2019 10:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1616 by ringo, posted 02-02-2019 10:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
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