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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 256 of 1184 (840357)
09-27-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Percy
09-25-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Guns are too dangerous to be widely owned
Today's news reports from Utah: Stray Bullet Kills Teen. Zackary Kempke was riding in the back seat of his family's car when he was struck in the head and killed instantly by a bullet fired by another family engaged in target shooting from several hundred feet away. No charges have been filed at this time.
This reminds me of an incident from maybe 15 years ago where a hunter fired at a deer and missed, striking and killing a housewife hanging wash out on the line. No charges were filed.
Guns are too dangerous to be in the hands of the general public. Those who do own guns should only be permitted to fire them at approved, regulated and inspected firing ranges. Hunting ground borders should never be within shooting distance of a non-hunting related structure/house/business, or hiking/biking/snowmobile trails, etc.
In general, I agree with you that gun laws in the US are too lax and that greater controls are needed. However, "stray bullets have been known to kill people in the past" is not a relevant argument.
There are good arguments for gun control. Suicide is a good one. Lots of people commit suicide in the US because guns are legal. Despite some of the bizarre denials we've seen on this forum that one is incontrovertibly true.
People being killed by stray bullets not meant for them, though - this is clutching at straws. This does not actually happen often. Lots of legal things that serve no purpose other than entertainment have led to accidental deaths. Shooting a woman hanging washing in the distance while out hunting would rank with these freak, unfortunate events. It's not a police driver.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Percy, posted 09-25-2018 3:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 9:42 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 257 of 1184 (840365)
09-27-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
09-27-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Today's handguns
jar writes:
And I said you are welcome to your opinion. But regardless of your opinion in the US what I am doing is legal in almost every State.
I'm having keyboard problems, so I'll jus have o cu-n-pase, which forunaely is sill he appropriae reply: I didn't say you were acting illegally. I said you were placing yourself and those around you in greater danger.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 10:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 258 of 1184 (840369)
09-27-2018 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
09-27-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Today's handguns
And you know, jar, that remaining Anglo through that whole process is probably the most important part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 1:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 9:57 PM Coragyps has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 259 of 1184 (840370)
09-27-2018 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Coragyps
09-27-2018 9:17 PM


Re: Today's handguns
It's an interesting contrast with 1967. When I lived in California before 1967 just as in Arizona, anyone could own and openly carry any gun, pistol, revolver or rifle. At that time there was a segment of the US population that thought the system and the police were the enemy but that they had a Constitutional Right to take up arms for their self protection, even from the State. They started publicly carrying loaded rifles as the US Constitution and California Law allowed. During one of their peaceful protests they marched to the State Capital and carrying rifles actually enter the building.
They made it clear that they were not promoting, condoning or supporting aggression but were exercising their Constitutional Rights.
The problem was that they were Black and the consequences were that the Republican Legislature introduced and passed a bill making it illegal to carry a loaded firearm in public; a bill that was signed into law by Governor Reagan.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Coragyps, posted 09-27-2018 9:17 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Coragyps, posted 09-27-2018 10:18 PM jar has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 260 of 1184 (840371)
09-27-2018 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
09-27-2018 9:57 PM


Re: Today's handguns
A very interesting bit of history, isn’t it? No racism here in the USA, no sir!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 9:57 PM jar has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 261 of 1184 (840372)
09-27-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Aussie
09-27-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Problem
Hi Aussie,
Welcome to EvC since this is my first post in answer to you.
Aussie writes:
There's just no end to the things they say with a straight face! I can't wait to share this one around the office...
What amazes me is how some people can read a very long post and snatch out a couple of lines and make fun of them.
ICANT writes:
If I shoot you I want you dead not wounded. Therefore I want a weapon that will fire a bullet that will penetrate your body armor and kill you.
If you understood what I said you would realize I was talking about someone who was trying to kill me.
Please notice the first word of my statement. IF, now realize I have never pointed a weapon at any living thing I did not intend to kill.
I would much rather love you to death if you would let me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Aussie, posted 09-27-2018 1:29 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Aussie, posted 10-02-2018 12:40 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 1184 (840377)
09-28-2018 7:23 AM


Today's carry package:
Today I will be carrying a 45acp Dan Wesson Patriot/Pointman experimental 1911 in my old Bucheimer BPM-45 holster on a High Noon holster belt.
The Dan Wesson will be carried Condition 1, that is Cocked & Locked with a full magazine (8 rounds) plus one in the chamber. I will also carry two extra 8 round and two 7 round magazines.
My back up today will be a Sig Sauer 230 chambered 9mm Kurz, called .380 in the US. I'll carry a couple extra 7 round magazines for it as well.
The 1911 like yesterday's FEG is single action only. The Sig 230 is a DA/SA (Double Action/Single Action) semi-automatic. The difference is that the Sig 230, like a revolver, will cock the hammer when the trigger is pulled and so can be carried hammer down. The 1911 like yesterdays FEG will only release the hammer when the trigger is pulled. It is the action of the recoil that cocks the hammer and chambers the next round. That is why both the 1911 and the FEG are carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on. Like a revolver, the Sig 230 has no safety and like the 1911 after the first round the recoil of the slide cocks the hammer and chambers the next round. That is the SA part of a DA/SA handgun; the first round is double action while secondary rounds are single action. The Sig 230 does have a hammer drop lever that blocks the firing pin and drops the hammer to the DA position.
The Hammer Drop lever is right behind the trigger at the top of the grip:
Handgun safety is important so since the 1911 (and the FEG carried openly yesterday) are in Condition 1 I choose holsters that have the additional advantage of a retention strap. It serves two purposes, it keeps the gun fully seated in the holster even if I should fall and it also helps prevent someone grabbing the gun out of my holster. Also the trigger area is fully covered at all times. There are other forms of retention devices available today on holsters and it's always a good idea for a gun owner to take advantage of them when appropriate. One of the least expensive and most effective ways to increase handgun safety is a well made holster and a heavy duty belt designed to support the additional weight and keep the setup in the proper position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-28-2018 9:31 AM jar has not replied
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 10:19 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 1184 (840380)
09-28-2018 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
09-28-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Why do you carry all of the extra ammunition? Do you expect to meet a situation?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 7:23 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 264 of 1184 (840382)
09-28-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by caffeine
09-27-2018 4:14 PM


Re: Guns are too dangerous to be widely owned
caffeine writes:
However, "stray bullets have been known to kill people in the past" is not a relevant argument.
...
People being killed by stray bullets not meant for them, though - this is clutching at straws. This does not actually happen often.
If you listed the ways people are killed by guns from most common to least common, you couldn't call even the last item irrelevant. They are ways that guns kill people, and they are all relevant. Check this out from mid-2017:
And that's just children in half a year. Children are only 25% of the population, so extrapolating means that 600 people total were struck by stray bullets in the first half of 2017, and extrapolating to the end of year would yield something in the neighborhood of 1200 people struck by stray bullets. I don't know how many were fatal.
Stray bullets are yet another compelling reason for calling for removing most guns from society.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix link.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by caffeine, posted 09-27-2018 4:14 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 265 of 1184 (840383)
09-28-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
09-28-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
By carrying those weapons you are placing you and those around you in greater danger. Almost no situation is made safer by the introduction of guns.
In a short while I will be going to the grocery store carrying my keys, my phone, my wallet and my grocery list. That's it. That's all I'll have, nothing more other than clothes. My presence in public will not place people in any danger. Since you included images of what you're packing so will I:
The wallet has half a clip, but the iPhone X is fully loaded. The grocery list is light this week.
There's the driving part, of course, but given that I've never caused an accident I think I must be at least an okay driver.
One of the least expensive and most effective ways to increase handgun safety is a well made holster and a heavy duty belt designed to support the additional weight and keep the setup in the proper position.
The absolutely least expensive and most effective way to increase handgun safety is to own no handguns at all.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 7:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-28-2018 10:45 AM Percy has replied
 Message 268 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 11:18 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 1184 (840384)
09-28-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Percy
09-28-2018 10:19 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
I told him that guns represent phallic symbolism to him...perhaps at an unconscious level. jar has always been a man of responsibility and confidence, and his guns project his earned right to carry his responsibility. Perhaps he sees himself as a watchman over society around him...he may argue that it does not matter what others think of him or his habits--it only matters what he does and that he lives in a country that has given him the right to be that watchman based on the responsibility and training that he has invested in it.
I can see your basic argument that there is no social value in handguns nor the need to carry them. My only comment is the phrase I remember hearing:
And this one:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 10:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 09-28-2018 11:45 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 1184 (840386)
09-28-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Percy
09-28-2018 10:19 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
You are welcome to hold that opinion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 10:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 1184 (840387)
09-28-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
09-28-2018 10:45 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Phat writes:
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Makes it easier to spot the outlaws.
Phat writes:
"Gun Control for Dummies"
As this thread has made abundantly clear, the "law-abiding citizens" kill a lot of people.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-28-2018 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 1184 (840388)
09-28-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
09-28-2018 11:45 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ringo writes:
Makes it easier to spot the outlaws.
Only if they open carry, but if they conceal the gun it doesn't help until after the fact.
ringo writes:
As this thread has made abundantly clear, the "law-abiding citizens" kill a lot of people.
Absolutely, and a lot of "law-abiding citizens" don't kill people.
But making really stupid arguments like those Percy has posted recently really don't help.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 09-28-2018 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-28-2018 11:56 AM jar has replied
 Message 272 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 12:47 PM jar has replied
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 09-28-2018 1:21 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 1184 (840389)
09-28-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
09-28-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
but you never answered my questions.
why do you carry so much ammunition?
do you see yourself as a responsible watchman over society?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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