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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1061 of 1198 (840781)
10-04-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Phat
10-04-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:
Because we no longer have Apostles...people we can trust---to hand it over to.
They were handing their possessions over to God. Don't you trust God? You saw what happened to Ananias and Sapphira when they were untrustworthy. What do you think would happen to the trustees if they were untrustworthy?
Phat writes:
There is no comparable system today that is anywhere near as integral as the one described in Acts.
The trustworthiness of the system has nothing to do with whether or not you should obey God.
Phat writes:
What I am telling you and have told you before is that there is no group with trusted leaders with which I feel comfortable being in that same type of commitment with.
And I'm telling you that that copout doesn't fly.
Phat writes:
The lack of a modern group of people like the Believers in Acts makes the case for what Faith is frustratingly trying to explain.
No it doesn't. It's an excuse to hold back. And holding back makes you a goat.
And Faith is not trying to "explain" anything. She's denying what the Bible says. There's no "explanation" that excuses that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1062 of 1198 (840782)
10-04-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Faith
10-04-2018 3:13 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
Nothing was left out. Ananias died on hearing the specific words about lying to the Holy Spirit.
You're leaving it out again.
quote:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
You're leaving out, "and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself." That's what the text says. Those are the specific words that Ananias heard. That's what you're leaving out.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1064 of 1198 (840788)
10-04-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Faith
10-04-2018 11:47 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and died.
As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and keeping back part of the price of the land and he died. You're leaving out verse 3.
Faith writes:
No mention of holding back money as the cause of his death.
It was definitely mentioned, right there in the same speech.
Faith writes:
It's about lying to God, period.
It's about lying to God and keeping back part of the price of the land. You don't get to write periods into the Bible.
Faith writes:
Yes, AGAIN, they were morally wrong to hold back part of the money but they were legally in the right to do so as the statement about it beig in their control shows.
AGAIN, the legality is irrelevant. It was the moral wrong that they were punished for.
Faith writes:
God punished them for lying to Him about it.
God punished them for lying to Him and keeping back part of the price of the land, as the text plainly says.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 11:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1067 of 1198 (840795)
10-04-2018 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Faith
10-04-2018 12:12 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I represent the history of Christian thought on this one...
That's an argument from popularity, which is worth nothing.
But as I've said, I don't believe you anyway. There are some apologists who interpret the passage as you do but you haven't given us any reason to think that that interpretation is as popular as you claim.
Faith writes:
... though and you represent nothing but your own misreading of the text.
You have failed to show that I am misreading the text. All you've done is ignore the parts of the text that you don't like.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 12:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1069 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 12:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1068 of 1198 (840796)
10-04-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1066 by Phat
10-04-2018 12:14 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:
Ok explain whom i would hypothetically or actually sign my possessions over to?
There's a book called the Bible:
quote:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
It's really frustrating that you so-called "believers" have no clue about the book you pretend to believe in.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 12:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1070 of 1198 (840804)
10-04-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Faith
10-04-2018 12:50 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I've now looked up four reputable commentaries on this passage and they all disagree with you, saying Ananias and Sapphira had the right to dispose of their property as they pleased and that they were punished for lying to God about it: David Guzik at Blue Letter Bible, Jamieson Fausset and Browne at Blue Letter Bible, Matthew Henry at Blue Letter Bible, and John Gill.
What you quote doesn't disagree with me. I have already said that Ananias and Sapphira had a legal right to do what they chose with their property - i.e. they had the free will to obey God or disobey Him. They freely chose to disobey - and the disobedience was clearly in holding back the money and lying about it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1072 of 1198 (840809)
10-04-2018 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Faith
10-04-2018 1:10 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
What you quoted said that they had a legal right to hold back the money. I agree with that, I always have and I have said so explicitly. But legality is irrelevant, as I have also said, and you seem to agree.
The only thing we disagree on is that you insist on ignoring the bloody obvious fact that Ananias and Sapphira were punished for holding back the money and lying about it. It's right there in the text. I've quoted it so many times that everybody reading this thread will have it memorized by now. I don't know how you can pervert the Bible by just pretending it isn't there. It is there. Why would it be there if you're just supposed to ignore it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1074 of 1198 (840811)
10-04-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Faith
10-04-2018 1:21 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
THEY WERE NOT PUNISHED FOR HOLDING BACK THE MONEY...
Why did Peter say, "and to keep back part of the price of the land"? Why do you keep pretending that he didn't say it? Nothing that you quoted from your precious commentaries addresses that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:59 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1078 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1076 of 1198 (840815)
10-04-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1075 by Faith
10-04-2018 1:59 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
since Peter explicitly says their sin was lying to God...
But he doesn't. He explicitly adds, "and to keep back part of the price of the land." He makes no distinction between the two transgressions. Why would he say it if you're just supposed to ignore it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 1:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1079 of 1198 (840827)
10-04-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Phat
10-04-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Giving It All Away
Phat writes:
Did Jesus ever tell the Roman Centurion to sell everything?
Does every storry have to make every point? If you can find one story in the Bible that doesn't condemn sin, is that enough of a loophole to satisfy you?
Phat writes:
Apart from His Disciples, did He even need to preach such a message to crowds of largely poor folks? Most of them had nothing anyway.
Exactly.
Isn't the fact that the early churches practiced communal ownership enough to suggest that that was Jesus' message?
Phat writes:
Based on your interpretation, no Christian would ever own anything.
quote:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1080 of 1198 (840829)
10-04-2018 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1078 by Phat
10-04-2018 3:21 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
Faiths argument...
is in direct contradiction of what the Bible says. Apologists can try to weasel out of it but it says what it says.
In all fairness, the early church apparently expected to be zapped up to heaven in their lifetime, so you could use that as an excuse to treat it as a short-term measure. If you can ignore what Peter said, you should also be able to double-think yourself into believing that two thousand years is too long for communal ownership but long enough for one generation.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1082 of 1198 (840837)
10-04-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1081 by Phat
10-04-2018 3:40 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
....but I think you simply take our Biblical Principles and turn them around on us....
As I have said, I'm frustrated by the contempt that you have for your own Biblical Principles. Faith openly denies what the Bible says. I'm just waiting for the cock to crow three times.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1088 of 1198 (841060)
10-07-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1087 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:23 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.
Careful, you may have an inkling of understanding there. By their fruits ye shall know them. Maybe thieves and liars aren't really believers at all. Maybe hateful, screaming harpies aren't really believers either.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1091 of 1198 (841069)
10-07-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1084 by Phat
10-07-2018 1:37 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club.
Just to be clear, it doesn't say that. It may be true but it doesn't say that. Peter might have been wearing argyle socks too but it doesn't say that either, so it doesn't seem like a good thing to hang your point on.
Phat writes:
It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that.
It would make no sense for God to have us kill His Son in order to be forgiven for lusting after our neighbour's ox, either. A lot of your theology doesn't make sense. On more thing needn't be a deal-breaker.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1092 of 1198 (841070)
10-07-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:41 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer.
Not even if I put a brick on my Shift key?
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 3:16 PM ringo has replied

  
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