Importance of Original Sin

Says who? That there are hundreds of different 'interpretations' is not in doubt. That *is* the mystery. Simple message from god himself - how can it be misinterpreted? I'm pretty straightforward on this stuff I just read the words. The history of Christianity is of people putting their own meaning into the words. That's why there a 30,000 different Christian belief systems all with their own interpretations.How come god is such a terrible communicator?

Which believers, the ones you agree with?

Well of course if you exclude every group that you don't think are Christian - which presumably includes the largest group of all, the Catholics - then you all agree. But that's hardly a sane argument.And the main point is unanswered, why would a message from God himself intended to save humanity be capable of such misunderstanding? In fact ANY misunderstanding. The answer is that this is all man made. Which Church? Orthodox? Catholic? Yours?

Including Catholics and Orthodox? Pascal was admitting that this man-made god can't communicate worth a damn. And saying that believers can make up what they like about it.

So now I'm confused. What is a 'genuine' believer? I'm interpreting what Pascal said. Apparently that's ok for the bible so...But you're still not answering the core question, why is god's message so opaque? Why couldn't he communicate it such that there could be no need for this convoluted 'interpretation' that causes so much trouble?

So that would be anybody that believes what you believe? Yes that's what he means. But the conclusion from that is that god can only communicate with those that already believe in him. What use is that? His stated intention was to save the world, not just a lucky few.It's also total garbage.

What's wrong with modern socialism Phat? I always thought Jesus would approve of it? In the same way that I imagine Jesus would disapprove of gun totin' capitalists.

No you can not make that point without evidence. And, of course, it's plainly wrong. To be correct, we'd all have to be psychopaths and sociopaths.

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The entire History of humanity provides many examples where wars, individual actions against others, and political attitudes have sprung from the flesh rather than from the "fruits of the spirit".

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Equally, people have created social structures to limit these tendencies - the entire criminal justice system, NATO, health services, charitable organisations etc etc not to mention unlimited occurrences of individual niceness to others.

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We cant blame our tendencies on some inherited mutation or demon.

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Correct, only an imbecile would do that. Our 'tendencies' are designed in. Obviously that simply a function of our evolutionary journey, but if you're a creationist you can't explain why the loving god did such an evil thing.

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One way to be responsible for our own sins is confessing them and acknowledging them. We need Communion in order to acquire the strength to overcome. Atheists may argue that the only communion we have is with each other, but it has been wisely said that a sheep cannot pull another sheep out of a ditch. The communion requires a shepherd.

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This is just pious, meanigless plonkerism.

That's not a argument, that's a straightforward, thoroughly evidenced fact. You've got this totally screwed up. We don't have a 'purpose'. We just 'are'. We're here like daffodils are here, like fish are here, like rhinos are here. We make the best of it and get on as best we can. Searching for higher purpose is futile - it's never been found because it doesn't exist. You either get on with it, or make one up and prey to it.

It really can't. There's no debate that life is better for more people now than say, 1,000 years ago. We still have wars and we still have famines and disease and poverty and inequality and so on - this is the human condition. The point is that progress is being made on all these issues. It's not imagination, it's a fact measureable in every dimension you care to mention. You personally are better off in every measureable way than your earlier anscestors. We have just come through a global banking crash that had it happened a 100 years ago would have put the West back 50 years. Our modern institutioned cushioned that effect - bad though it was. We have been to war with several nations and still are, but those conflicts haven't been able to escalate on the scale that previous wars have - yet; again because of our institutions. It's still possible that things will go wrong again, but unless we manage to wipe ourselves out, we're making steady if halting progress. That's not at all in doubt by any sufficiently objective analysis. Things are getting better. What I really mean is that it doesn't exist. As a species we've been looking for thousands of years. Is this some form of forum schizophrenia? What is it with you that you have to invent in your own head what you think is in mine? Despite what I say?When I say we have no purpose I mean we have no purpose. I do not mean that our purpose is only to fuck like animals. Try not to limit your imagination to include only your own sad view of life here. If you could escape from your limited, polluted and drab view of our lives here - god knows where it comes from - you might be able to actually enjoy your life here and stop hoping for an invented next. This is what you've got, enjoy it while you can.Go fishing for god's sake. [Or whatever floats you boat.]