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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 556 of 1187 (841321)
10-11-2018 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
10-11-2018 9:00 AM


Re: loving God
I would waffle in this case and learn more towards GDRS position. God may have inspired the Bible but not every writer was so pristine as to be free from the cultural bias of their era. It would be as if an inspired scribe were writing of the Amerikites in today's modern climate and wrote that God commanded us to pursue the 9-11 terrorists to the ends of the earth and killing them all. With our modern drone attacks we managed to attempt to do just that, and if you had asked any observant Christian in America they most certainly would justify it as Gods vengeance against the enemy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 9:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 557 of 1187 (841322)
10-11-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Phat
10-11-2018 1:16 AM


Re: Past Perspective: 2012
Phat writes:

Without characters to reflect the words, words are empty.


Nonsense. You can have words without characters. Do you think the U.S. Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or the Magna Carta is "empty" just because they're not being recited by Long John Silver?

Phat writes:

In the movie Braveheart, the following quote is uttered: Brothers! What we do in life echoes in eternity..


That would be Gladiator.

Phat writes:

The words themselves mean nothing without the encouragement and example modeled by a strong leader.


Again, nonsense. The words would be just as inspiring written down, with no fictional character to verbalize them. Consider Thomas Paine's Common Sense, which did a lot to inspire the American Revolution. Often the words borrowed by the leader are as important as the leader himself.

Phat writes:

Nobody is simply going to sell all they have and follow an idea...


Nonsense. The early Church (see Ananias and Sapphira) did exactly that.

Phat writes:

...unless they are idealistic and somewhat naive.

quote:
Matthew 18:2-3 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 1:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 558 of 1187 (841341)
10-11-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by PaulK
10-11-2018 9:39 AM


Re: loving God
I can't be wrong about this because God cannot commit sin and what is being called genocide is in fact justice. We don't call the death penalty homicide, nor should we call it genocide.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 9:39 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 2:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 563 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 2:51 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 559 of 1187 (841342)
10-11-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Phat
10-11-2018 12:22 PM


Re: loving God
All that just illustrates the unfortunate fact that American Christians are biblically illiterate, which was demonstrated amply enough by the general inability of Christian leaders to recognize that 9/11 was God's judgment on the nation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4611
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 560 of 1187 (841343)
10-11-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
10-11-2018 8:06 AM


God's Justice
Faith writes:

God always acts righteously and justly. He cannot commit "genocide" because that is defined as a crime and God cannot commit a crime. He cannot do anything wrong, sinful, unrighteous or criminal. He has no such "right" as you are claiming. Therefore when He has a people killed it is the death penalty for THEIR crimes, sins, idolatries and so on. In the cases so often referred to the peoples had been given hundreds of years to repent, and it was only when their iniquities had reached "the fullness of time" that God sent judgment against them. We cannot possibly understand this from our modern vantage point, but we are certainly in the wrong if we impose our understanding on God's judgments and judge Him when we are to be judged by Him.


So you are going to limit God by saying that He cant do anything wrong. Presumably then you are saying that because He is God then whatever He does is right. However, if we are to understand the Bible as you do we can see that God is capable of committing genocide Himself as in Sodom and Gomorra, but even worse He is getting humans to do His dirty work for Him in other cases without regard to how that will affect their hearts and minds. You are essentially saying that ultimately there really is no right and wrong.
Faith writes:

I have no problem at all deciding that because I know the Bible is "God-breathed" so that I know what it says is the truth. As for the WTC attack I believe nothing happens without God so that too is His judgment, though this one was more like God's bringing the enemies of His people, the Assyrians and Babylonians against Israel and Judah, something they initiated but served God's purposes anyway, in the case of the WTCD a judgment which nobody heeded of course, except a very few preachers I happened to hear at the time. All the rest were saying God doesn't do such things.
Well they have no knowledge of God's judgments then. 9/11 should have been followed by a great movement of repentance toward God to restore the nation to His favor, but instead we did what ancient Israel also did when under judgment: God destroyed the trees so they replanted the trees; God knocked down buildings so they rebuilt the buildings. I think that is in Isaiah 10 though I'd have to look it up.


Obviously when you say that the Bible is God breathed your reasoning is circular. Yes I believe that God breathes life into and speaks to us through the Scriptures but that does not make them inerrant in the way that you understand them. When we read stories of God committing or commanding genocide or public stoning, we can read them and understand how severely we humans can distort things by assigning evil to God thus relieving them of the responsibility for the evil and even justifying it. That is what God has to say to us in those ancient stories.

You go even further and justify the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and agreeing that they were simply acting as agents of God. That is so unbelievably far from what Jesus lived and taught, and this is what happens when Christians make a false idol out of the Bible instead of actually following Jesus. Your understanding of God becomes no different than the god of the 9/11 terrorists. Yes God was involved that day. He was active in the hearts of those who risked their lives rescuing people and in the hearts of those that reached out to the families of the victims. He suffered with those who lost their lives and their families.

Faith writes:

Instead of repenting and owning their sin Israel ignored their sin, felt sorry for themselves and rebuilt what God had destroyed. And God says that He will judge them even more because of that.

And that's what America has done as well. This was all written about in the book "The Harbinger" by Jonathan Cahn who saw the connection between our destroyed trees and buildings and Israel's in that passage, some pretty uncanny connections as a matter of fact, a direct pointing to the teaching about defying God's judgments and bringing more as a result.

We never learn. As long as people hate God for His judgments we'll just go on reaping judgments. Too many have a sappy view of Jesus as having nothing to do with judgment. If you read Isaiah 61, which He quoted in the synagogue about His mission as Messiah, you might note that He read only the part about His coming as a savior and a comforter, and stopped at the point where it goes on to say "the day of vengeance of our God." That's His mission too, but on His second coming. He came once to save us, but He'll come a second time to judge the world. Same Jesus, same God of the Old Testament, the one you hate.


I agree that God is a god of justice. But God is also a god of mercy and forgiveness. I think that the person who understood that best was CS Lewis. I know I have quoted this here previously but it is worth quoting again. From the book The Great Divorce:
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.

My Christian belief is that God is just, merciful and loving, and that ultimately there will be perfect justice. I was raised in a middle class Canadian home where I was loved and cared for by moral and ethical parents. So many grow up in homes where they are not valued and in an atmosphere that is neither loving, moral nor ethical. One reason that I feel at peace with Gods judgment is that I am confident that Gods plan will see an understanding of our experiences in this life so that the individual that emerged from a negative environment will be treated mercifully and with compassion for those circumstances.

I dont have all the answers that you seem to believe that you have. I am content that even though I have opinions of the ultimate future of this world I am content to leave it to God. As a Christian I do trust that ultimately there will be perfect justice for all, and that justice will involve mercy, forgiveness and above all love.

Faith writes:

Honestly, GDR, I really don't know if you are a Christian. Sometimes I accept that you are and other times I think you reject too much of the truth to be a Christian. And you even reject salvation, the gospel itself, actually talk about it as an unworthy human manipulation -- the thought makes me shudder.


I guess Im just happy that it is God judging me and not you. Incidentally I dont reject salvation. My point is that salvation should not be the focus of our Christianity. Salvation is Gods business and our business is to fulfill the task that we have been given which is to be grateful for the gift of life, to humbly love mercy and kindness, to act justly, and above all to reflect Gods love into His creation,

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 8:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM GDR has responded
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:50 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 561 of 1187 (841345)
10-11-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by GDR
10-11-2018 2:38 PM


Re: God's Justice
So you are going to limit God by saying that He cant do anything wrong.

Limit God? By understanding that He is absolute Perfection? What on earth has happened to bring such a nonsensical idea about? I can't fathom this weirdness. Why would you even WANT an imperfect God? I ADORE His perfections, His perfect beauty, His perfect understanding, His perfect moral law, His perfect judgments, His perfect righteousness, His perfect power, His perfect knowledge . I'm aghast at such an idea as an imperfect God.

Presumably then you are saying that because He is God then whatever He does is right.

Absolutely, unequivocally, unquestionably, right. That is why we can use the Bible as our standard for judging absolutely everything and don't have to second guess anything or wonder which part is true etc etc etc.

I'm so flabbergasted by this idea there may be nothing else to say about the rest of what you wrote, but I'll come back and see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 3:07 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 562 of 1187 (841347)
10-11-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:34 PM


Re: loving God
quote:

I can't be wrong about this because God cannot commit sin and what is being called genocide is in fact justice. We don't call the death penalty homicide, nor should we call it genocide.

wikipedia expressly lists capital punishment as an example of homicide. Indeed the general definition the killing of one person by another clearly does include executions.

When we have, not an orderly execution, but a military force exterminating men, women and children the idea that we should not call it genocide seems even further fetched.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:52 PM PaulK has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1558
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 563 of 1187 (841348)
10-11-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:34 PM


Re: loving God
We don't call the death penalty homicide

To put on my nitpick hat, yes we do. Homicide is someone killing someone else. From Farlex's free legal dictionary discussion of homicides that are not criminal:

quote:
A homicide may be justifiable or excusable by the surrounding circumstances. In such cases, the homicide will not be considered a criminal act. A justifiable homicide is a homicide that is commanded or authorized by law. For instance, soldiers in a time of war may be commanded to kill enemy soldiers. Generally, such killings are considered justifiable homicide unless other circumstances suggest that they were not necessary or that they were not within the scope of the soldiers' duty. In addition, a public official is justified in carrying out a death sentence because the execution is commanded by state or federal law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:54 PM caffeine has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4611
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 564 of 1187 (841349)
10-11-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Percy
10-10-2018 7:32 AM


Re: loving God
Percy writes:

I'm trying to figure out why you would say this, which implies that you have a deep capacity to see love in everyone:
GDR writes:
Faith, I'm not questioning the fact that you are a loving wonderful person, and a wonderful Christian.
When just a message ago you said this:

Nonsense. I know numerous non-Christians who are more Christ-like than a lot of Christians I know.
Which implies much more objectivity.


Fair enough. I don't know enough about Faith to actually pass judgement on her so I am assuming what I said about her. Certainly I find it distressing that she so distorts Christ'a message but at the same time she is able to justify OT atrocities without seeing them as being justified in her own life.

As for the last statement it seems to me that we are capable of somewhat objectively judging whether or not an individual has a more loving nature than some other individual.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Percy, posted 10-10-2018 7:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 565 of 1187 (841350)
10-11-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by PaulK
10-11-2018 2:48 PM


Re: loving God
All I'm trying to do is get the standard idea about this recognized. You want to change definitions and fool around with words in such a way as to obscure my simple point that God cannot be wrong or unjust. I'm not insisting that you agree with me, but I am insisting that you stop confusing things so that my opinion can't even be correctly stated.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 2:48 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 3:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 566 of 1187 (841351)
10-11-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by caffeine
10-11-2018 2:51 PM


Re: loving God
I'm not talking about some kind of prissy pedantic legal definition, I'm talking about how ordinary people talk about these things. Yikes, why can't a simple point get recognized around here?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 2:51 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 3:04 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 567 of 1187 (841353)
10-11-2018 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:52 PM


Re: loving God
quote:

All I'm trying to do is get the standard idea about this recognized.

The standard idea is that it is genocide.

quote:

You want to change definitions and fool around with words in such a way as to obscure my simple point that God cannot be wrong or unjust.

No. I am just objecting to your attempts to change definitions and fool about with words. I am not at this point arguing about whether the genocide was justified or not.

quote:

I'm not insisting that you agree with me, but I am insisting that you stop confusing things so that my opinion can't even be correctly stated.

There is no confusion in pointing out that - according to the Bible - God ordered genocide. That is what it says.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1558
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 568 of 1187 (841354)
10-11-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:54 PM


Re: loving God
I'm not talking about some kind of prissy pedantic legal definition, I'm talking about how ordinary people talk about these things. Yikes, why can't a simple point get recognized around here?

But I think in this case it's more than just a prissy and pedantic definition. Homicide is only really a legal term; and it refers to killing people. Then there are all kinds of different types of homicide depending on whether it's justified and whether it's intentional.

Genocide is killing a whole people, rather than just individuals. You seem to be invoking some kind of concept of justifiable genocide; but it's clearly still genocide. We are obviously having difficulty with conceiving what could justify genocide; and the Bible passages quoted don't shed much light on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 3:15 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:40 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4611
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 569 of 1187 (841355)
10-11-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:47 PM


Re: God's Justice
Faith writes:

Limit God? By understanding that He is absolute Perfection? What on earth has happened to bring such a nonsensical idea about? I can't fathom this weirdness. Why would you even WANT an imperfect God? I ADORE His perfections, His perfect beauty, His perfect understanding, His perfect moral law, His perfect judgments, His perfect righteousness, His perfect power, His perfect knowledge . I'm aghast at such an idea as an imperfect God.

Absolutely I believe in a perfect God whose nature is perfectly embodied by Jesus. Genocide and public stoning are completely contrary to what Jesus taught so we know that they are wrong. You however are prepared to accept and call right the idea that God both committed and commanded these atrocities. In other words it is you that worships an imperfect God and I would in turn ask you why you would want to do that.

Faith writes:

Absolutely, unequivocally, unquestionably, right. That is why we can use the Bible as our standard for judging absolutely everything and don't have to second guess anything or wonder which part is true etc etc etc.

You say you use the Bible as a standard. You actually don't. You have to twist the basic meaning of the Bible so badly that the message that God actually has for us becomes unrecognizable. As I've said before, it becomes Biblleianity instead of Christianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:31 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 570 of 1187 (841358)
10-11-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by caffeine
10-11-2018 3:04 PM


Genocide - clearing up the confusion
We do not say that genocide is wiping out a human population - but only if it is wrong.

We say that genocide is wiping out a human population - and that is wrong.

That is why trying to avoid the use of the word genocide is nothing more than spin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 3:04 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:21 PM PaulK has responded

    
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