Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-10-2018 3:33 PM
211 online now:
AZPaul3, dwise1, ooh-child, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle, Tanypteryx (7 members, 204 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,764 Year: 18,587/29,783 Month: 532/2,043 Week: 84/386 Day: 34/50 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
7374
75
7677
...
80Next
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1111 of 1198 (841359)
10-11-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1110 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:09 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

What I am against is ringos idea that "giving everything away" is somehow justifiable and encouraged.


If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take? If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?

Phat writes:

He uses Jesus to hammer the point home to Christians.


Pardon me for thinking that Christians might want to do what Jesus told them to do.

Phat writes:

Methinks that his "message" is not what modern socialism would advocate.


So now you're using modern socialism to cop out of following Jesus? You've come a long way, baby.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1110 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:32 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1121 by Phat, posted 10-13-2018 2:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1112 of 1198 (841360)
10-11-2018 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Tangle
10-11-2018 12:50 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
See my post to Diomedes above. I think that modern socialism is a good thing. As a Christian, I disagree with non-Christians like ringo taking a literal reading of who he sees as a character in a book and embracing the message even though it is not what modern socialism would advocate...according to your definitions. Additionally, I feel that I have a better idea of what Jesus wants than do non-believers. They likely would argue otherwise...though for the life of me I don't know why.

One does not do a plain literal reading of a 2000-year-old "message and apply it to modern society in a modern context. I would argue that at least some Christians are more qualified to comment on what Jesus means for us today rather than throwing him away and keeping a 2000-year-old message in a book with which to defend your point.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2018 12:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1163 by Aussie, posted 10-26-2018 4:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1113 of 1198 (841361)
10-11-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by ringo
10-11-2018 3:20 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
ringo writes:

If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take?

To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense.
If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?
It takes hearing from Him now. It takes loving Him and loving others as I do myself. Granted here is where your argument may have some teeth....I should consider the least of these as I do myself. Tus I give...and could give more...but nowhere do I feel I must give all...except in spirit. You likely advocate giving all because you are losing what little you have anyway...and justify the message.

So now you're using modern socialism to cop out of following Jesus? You've come a long way, baby.
Show me how I am not following Jesus. You claim to follow a 2000-year-old message because you yourself may need the spare change from others someday. A wise steward at least. Just stop trying to use the message of Jesus to get my spare change. You might be surprised that I would even give it to you, but I listen to my conscience and not any cardboard sign nor forlorn character on a corner.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1114 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:49 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1164 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 5:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1114 of 1198 (841362)
10-11-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1113 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:32 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense.


You have it backwards. The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it. The envellope that it came in is what's irrelevant. You know that. Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that you don't?

Phat writes:

It takes hearing from Him now.


But you can't demonstrate that you are hearing from Him now.

Phat writes:

Show me how I am not following Jesus.


Been there, done that. You're not doing what His followers did.

Phat writes:

I listen to my conscience and not any cardboard sign nor forlorn character on a corner.


Maybe you should turn up the volume on your conscience.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 3:56 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1115 of 1198 (841415)
10-12-2018 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1114 by ringo
10-11-2018 3:49 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it.
Which message in particular? The books have more than one.

If we are talking Matthew 25 again, you may be interested to read this brief article.
Was Jesus A Socialist, Capitalist, Or Something Else?

quote:
Its fascinating how frequently modern dilettantes re-make Christ in their image via Matthew 25. Socialists finesse Scripture to justify redistributing wealth to the least of these (Matthew 25:40), while capitalists overplay the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30). Both tout Christs teachings as a crucial trump card.

Sounds like *someone* I know of on the internet!

The author also penned this article: Do Marxism And Christianity Have Anything In Common?...some noteworthy quotes:

quote:
The Marxist dialectic redefines good and evil. Sin changed from rebellion against God into striving for individual ends as opposed to the collective. The institution of property rights represented original sin.(...)Those passages in Acts were descriptive more than prescriptive. Taking them otherwise throws out virtually everything else in Scripture. Frederick Engels saw this clearly, "If some few passages of the Bible may be favorable to communism, the general spirit of its doctrines is, nevertheless, totally opposed to it."

Comments? (Yes...others read the Bible too...and have a right to their opinions and beliefs.)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:15 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1124 by Faith, posted 10-14-2018 2:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1116 of 1198 (841418)
10-12-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Phat
10-12-2018 3:56 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

Which message in particular? The books have more than one.


Jesus seemed to think there was only one:
quote:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 3:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1117 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1117 of 1198 (841419)
10-12-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1116 by ringo
10-12-2018 4:15 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Well, that's a good answer. Love God and love others as I do myself. The only problem is that sometimes I abuse myself. I eat bad foods. I drink too much. I smoke the peace pipe till my lungs hurt. I need to work on taking care of myself as well as helping others.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1116 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1118 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1118 of 1198 (841421)
10-12-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1117 by Phat
10-12-2018 4:18 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

The only problem is that sometimes I abuse myself.


He said love your neighbour as you love yourself, not treat your neighbour as you treat yourself. You don't get to pass on the abuse. You're supposed to put your best foot forward.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1117 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1119 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:34 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1119 of 1198 (841422)
10-12-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1118 by ringo
10-12-2018 4:26 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Do you believe we should sell our homes to help our neighbors? If everyone did that we would all be homeless.

Or do you believe that "the state" should own all homes?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1118 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1120 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1120 of 1198 (841424)
10-12-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1119 by Phat
10-12-2018 4:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

Do you believe we should sell our homes to help our neighbors? If everyone did that we would all be homeless.


Do you think all of the members of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) were homeless?

Phat writes:

Or do you believe that "the state" should own all homes?


I think the state should provide homes for people who need them. The voluntary charities that fundamentalists tout are failing miserably to do that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1119 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1121 of 1198 (841480)
10-13-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by ringo
10-11-2018 3:20 PM


What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
ringo writes:

You have it backwards. The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it. The envelope that it came in is what's irrelevant. You know that. Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that you don't?

Because for one thing, you among all whom I have talked to on these matters are the only one who essentially deems the messenger as irrelavant...little more than an envelope. I suppose that jar too agrees to an extent...though he does not claim atheism as you do. Every other source that I listen to emphasizes Christ. You would say that they are mouthing "Lord, Lord" but I am not as skeptical of all of organized religion as you and jar are. Tangle is right---it is a topsy-turvy world we live in. I CANT and jar both proudly carry guns and you advocate leftist progressive policies...which I give you a hard time about, by the way...I noticed you didn't comment on the two articles that I linked you to in post# 1115. They do make a point on using Jesus to advocate modern left-leaning principles.

ringo writes:

If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take? If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?

Why would I even entertain any idea from you regarding what it "takes" to get saved? You don't even believe that we are lost, to begin with. Its the envelope that does the saving...not the message...this is where you and jar are wrong. You both advocate that Christianity is all about one does rather than what one believes. Faith believes that it is all about what one believes and that God predetermined this stuff from the beginning. (She claims staunch Calvinism) I am in the middle of these two extremes. I don't think for a moment that God pre-picked and chose everyone that He knew would respond to His call, nor do I believe that He would smile benevolently on humans who shared everything in a giant communal living arrangement...that itself seems cruel...ever try sharing a room with several people? Uncomfortable, isn't it!

If for the overall sake of argument you are asking me to examine my conscience and be more generous, I won't argue the point--I agree. If you are asking me to either sell my house or share my resources with more people, I feel you are asking too much. If you argue that this is what Jesus asked, I will honestly admit to Him that I can't do it. As did the rich young ruler. And yet I am hardly rich.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 3:23 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1122 of 1198 (841482)
10-13-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Phat
10-13-2018 2:58 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Phat writes:

Because for one thing, you among all whom I have talked to on these matters are the only one who essentially deems the messenger as irrelavant...little more than an envelope.


On the contrary, any atheist will tell you the same thing, and any Muslim, etc. will tell you that your messenger is irrelevant.

Phat writes:

Every other source that I listen to emphasizes Christ.


Then you should broaden your horizons.

Phat writes:

I noticed you didn't comment on the two articles that I linked you to in post# 1115. They do make a point on using Jesus to advocate modern left-leaning principles.


They make an apologetic point, not a good one.

Phat writes:

Why would I even entertain any idea from you regarding what it "takes" to get saved?


Because the idea comes directly from the Bible, in the exact words of the One that you purport to follow. Because that same Bible is the only source you have for even the existence of the One you purport to follow.

Phat writes:

Its the envelope that does the saving...not the message...


How can you even say that with a straight face? Can you really not see how utterly, utterly stupid that is? Try telling the phone company to shove their bill and just send you the envellope.

Phat writes:

...ever try sharing a room with several people? Uncomfortable, isn't it!


I grew up with three bothers in one bedroom. It has its good and bad points. I would certainly rather do that than watch my brother sleeping in the gutter.

Phat writes:

If for the overall sake of argument you are asking me to examine my conscience and be more generous, I won't argue the point--I agree.


I wouldn't suggest that you're not generous enough. That's between you and your conscience. But I don't like to see your conscience being over-ridden by right-wing politics or Faith-like perverted theology.

Phat writes:

If you are asking me to either sell my house or share my resources with more people, I feel you are asking too much.


I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just pointing out what Jesus said.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Phat, posted 10-13-2018 2:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1123 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1123 of 1198 (841502)
10-14-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1122 by ringo
10-13-2018 3:23 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Because that same Bible is the only source you have for even the existence of the One you purport to follow.
I don't believe that this is true. God has been around long before any humans existed or any words were written...and I dont need evidence to be convinced

Yoyu can claim that without evidence I have no case, but I would simply say that your science and evidence are irrelevant in this case.

And thus we disagree


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 3:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by ringo, posted 10-14-2018 2:18 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1124 of 1198 (841503)
10-14-2018 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Phat
10-12-2018 3:56 PM


Even Engels knew the Bible doesn't promote Communism
Just had to give this from your quote some special space of its own. Engels yet.

Frederick Engels saw this clearly, "If some few passages of the Bible may be favorable to communism, the general spirit of its doctrines is, nevertheless, totally opposed to it."

Yes indeed. Truth from the mouth of a Communist.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 3:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1125 of 1198 (841517)
10-14-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1123 by Phat
10-14-2018 2:49 AM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Phat writes:

...and I dont need evidence to be convinced


But you're actively rejecting the evidence.

You claim to believe in Jesus but the only evidence we have of what Jesus thought is in the Bible. You can make up whatever woo-God you like but you shouldn't be linking Jesus to it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1123 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1126 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:58 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
7374
75
7677
...
80Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018