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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1321 of 1358 (841337)
10-11-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:04 PM


Faith writes:

I put it aside as incomprehensible, which is how I still see it.

It's not that hard. My translation:

The message alone did not indicate that the customer was gay as anyone might wish to promote that message.

Thus there was no discrimination on sexual orientation grounds.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1322 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1322 of 1358 (841338)
10-11-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Tangle
10-11-2018 2:12 PM


Thank you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2018 2:12 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 1323 of 1358 (841373)
10-11-2018 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1313 by caffeine
10-11-2018 11:23 AM


They had been asked to bake a cake which said 'Support Gay Marriage' on top. This is a different thing to baking a cake which would be used at a gay wedding.

A similar thing was an important point in Ginsburg and Sotomayer's dissent in Masterpiece Cakeshop. They pointed out that not only did Philips refuse the request before any discussion about what text would be put onto the cake, but in Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertisements none of the wedding cakes have any text or figures or anything that would indicate any kind of marriage.

Their point is that without any visible identification about what kind of wedding the cake would go to, the cake itself cannot be considered any kind of message, and so requiring Phillips to create such a cake for a same sex couple in accordance to the state's anti-discrimination laws do not constitute a violation of Phillips' First Amendment rights.


We weaken our greatness when we confuse our patriotism with tribal rivalries that have sown resentment and hatred and violence in all the corners of the globe. -- John McCain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 11:23 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1324 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:58 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1325 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-11-2018 11:03 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1324 of 1358 (841374)
10-11-2018 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Chiroptera
10-11-2018 7:51 PM


Phillips' conscience was engaged by knowing it was for a gay wedding, and a wedding cake is a very particular item that can be for nothing else than a wedding. He'd have had to work with the two men to design it to their requirements so it would engage him at many levels. Ginsburg and Sotomayor got it wrong and if their view had prevailed Phillips would have had to go out of the wedding cake business. Not that they'd care or anybody else of course, gay marriage is more important than anybody's conscience, most especially a Christian conscience.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Chiroptera, posted 10-11-2018 7:51 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1326 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2018 2:49 AM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1325 of 1358 (841375)
10-11-2018 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Chiroptera
10-11-2018 7:51 PM


A similar thing was an important point in Ginsburg and Sotomayer's dissent in Masterpiece Cakeshop. They pointed out that not only did Philips refuse the request before any discussion about what text would be put onto the cake, but in Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertisements none of the wedding cakes have any text or figures or anything that would indicate any kind of marriage.

Their point is that without any visible identification about what kind of wedding the cake would go to, the cake itself cannot be considered any kind of message, and so requiring Phillips to create such a cake for a same sex couple in accordance to the state's anti-discrimination laws do not constitute a violation of Phillips' First Amendment rights.

The whole case was just so infantile, really. On the gay marriage side, so they discriminated against you? Then why on earth would you willingly want to give them your hard-earned money? Oh, because they saw an opportunity to sue the shop... that's the real reason.

And on Masterpiece's side... last time I checked, money is still green whether its coming from straight or gay patrons. Quit your whining, make/sell cakes, and move on with life... It's like Chik-Fil-A losing half of their revenue to make some kind of political statement. STFU and just sell the chicken!


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Chiroptera, posted 10-11-2018 7:51 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by Chiroptera, posted 10-14-2018 10:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1326 of 1358 (841387)
10-12-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1324 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:58 PM


Faith writes:

Phillips' conscience was engaged by knowing it was for a gay wedding, and a wedding cake is a very particular item that can be for nothing else than a wedding. He'd have had to work with the two men to design it to their requirements so it would engage him at many levels.

My reading of the UK judgement would make that pretty cleary discrimination. They're refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple only because it will be used at a gay wedding.

Not that they'd care or anybody else of course, gay marriage is more important than anybody's conscience,

That's not correct. Fighting harmful discrimination is more important than anybody's dumb prejudice regardless of its source.

most especially a Christian conscience.

The law applies to everyone, to all faiths and none. Get over your martyrdom.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1324 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 7:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1327 of 1358 (841438)
10-12-2018 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1326 by Tangle
10-12-2018 2:49 AM


gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:

Phillips' conscience was engaged by knowing it was for a gay wedding, and a wedding cake is a very particular item that can be for nothing else than a wedding. He'd have had to work with the two men to design it to their requirements so it would engage him at many levels.

My reading of the UK judgement would make that pretty cleary discrimination. They're refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple only because it will be used at a gay wedding.

My reading was that if they judge against a person's being forced to write something in favor of gay marriage, that they would be equally against forcing a person to provide a special service for a gay wedding, since it is gay marriage which is the thing being refused, not the persons.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2018 2:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 2:46 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1328 of 1358 (841448)
10-13-2018 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Faith
10-12-2018 7:01 PM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:

My reading was that if they judge against a person's being forced to write something in favor of gay marriage, that they would be equally against forcing a person to provide a special service for a gay wedding, since it is gay marriage which is the thing being refused, not the persons.

A message promoting gay marriage is quite clearly in free speech territory and could be asked for by anybody (gay or not) for any purpose (gay wedding or no wedding at all). That was the judgement.

A wedding cake for a gay wedding is specifically for gay people and to refuse to sell them a standard wedding cake for their wedding is discrimination against them personally. (If that was the situation.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 7:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1329 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1329 of 1358 (841449)
10-13-2018 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by Tangle
10-13-2018 2:46 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
I don't think there is even such a thing as a "standard" wedding cake. They are specialty items, custom designed for the occasion to the specifications of the parties to be married. If it was just a matter of buying a standard cake out of the display case there would be no problem, they could do with it whatever they like. It's the engagement of the baker in a creative endeavor that is the problem. And it IS about gay marriage, not about the persons.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 2:46 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 3:33 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1335 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 12:23 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1330 of 1358 (841451)
10-13-2018 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by Faith
10-13-2018 2:50 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:

I don't think there is even such a thing as a "standard" wedding cake. They are specialty items, custom designed for the occasion to the specifications of the parties to be married.

By 'standard' I mean a wedding cake that is non-gender specific, one that could be used at any wedding - even if it is a custom design.

If it was just a matter of buying a standard cake out of the display case there would be no problem, they could do with it whatever they like.

Well that's progess of sorts, you're now happy to sell an off the shelf wedding cake to a gay couple.

It's the engagement of the baker in a creative endeavor that is the problem. And it IS about gay marriage, not about the persons.

But if the gay couple talk to the baker about what they want and what they want it for - even if there's no message, it's just a cake that looks like a wedding cake looks - they can't have it?

That would be outright discrimination.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1331 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1331 of 1358 (841452)
10-13-2018 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Tangle
10-13-2018 3:33 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
This has been argued to death for years already. If the baker feels he or she is being put in the position of giving endorsement to gay marriage, whatever circumstances bring that about, they will refuse to do it. If the court thinks that is discrimination against gay people rather than an objection to gay marriage I would consider the court to be wrong, but in any case they will punish the baker and possibly put the baker out of business. If that's the way it goes, then that's the way it goes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 3:33 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1332 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 5:09 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1349 by caffeine, posted 10-15-2018 5:01 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1332 of 1358 (841456)
10-13-2018 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1331 by Faith
10-13-2018 4:03 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
If the baker is inistent on behaving like a puritanical dickhed, then that is indeed the way it will go.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 5:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1333 of 1358 (841457)
10-13-2018 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Tangle
10-13-2018 5:09 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Exactly. And there's the persecution you want to deny.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 5:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1334 by Tangle, posted 10-13-2018 7:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1334 of 1358 (841463)
10-13-2018 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Faith
10-13-2018 5:19 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:

Exactly. And there's the persecution you want to deny.

Yeh, it's true martyrdom for the cause. They can be made saints for being fined for refusing to sell a cake. Enjoy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 5:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1335 of 1358 (841467)
10-13-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1329 by Faith
10-13-2018 2:50 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:

I don't think there is even such a thing as a "standard" wedding cake. They are specialty items, custom designed for the occasion to the specifications of the parties to be married.


Suppose the happy couple says, "We'll take number three out of the catalogue, with the pink roses. The only thing is, instead of a bride and groom on the top, we want two brides, one with a big handlebar moustache."

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1336 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:47 PM ringo has responded

  
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