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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 571 of 669 (841366)
10-11-2018 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by PaulK
10-11-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Genocide - clearing up the confusion
God is perfect. He can do no wrong. Like it or not it is justice when He wipes out a tribe of people, and we should learn from it what God considers deserving of such punishment because some nations are ripe for it today. The kinds of punishments are listed in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and we are already suffering the beginnings of some of them, but very few of us take the Bible seriously enough to recognize this. In any case the word "genocide" has criminal connotations, therefore it does not apply.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 3:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by PaulK, posted 10-12-2018 12:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 572 of 669 (841368)
10-11-2018 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by GDR
10-11-2018 3:07 PM


Re: God's Justice
You see God as perfectly embodied in Jesus, as He came to us in His first advent. That way you limit Him to His work as savior and Suffering Servant and conveniently ignore that He is going to come again to destroy the enemies of God (Isaiah 61:2 and Revelation 19). He's God, GDR, He's God the Son; He was at the Creation; all things were made through Him. There is no way His character is any different from that of God the Father, who wiped out whole tribes for their idolatries. You are deceiving yourself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 3:07 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:00 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 573 of 669 (841369)
10-11-2018 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by caffeine
10-11-2018 3:04 PM


Re: loving God
Yes, legally, strictly speaking, you are using the terms correctly. The problem is that "genocide" carries connotations that do not apply to God. Yes, God may wipe out a whole tribe of people in judgment for their sins.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 3:04 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Aussie, posted 10-15-2018 9:29 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 574 of 669 (841372)
10-11-2018 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by GDR
10-11-2018 2:38 PM


Re: God's Justice
You go even further and justify the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and agreeing that they were simply acting as agents of God.

I knew you would misread this. No I am not justifying the evil perpetrators of 9/11, I'm simply saying that God can use people with evil motives to perform His will in this world. He used the Assyrians and the Babylonians against His people Israel in the same way. But He will punish them in the end for their murderousness. {abe: on a smaller scale Joseph tells his brothers who had sold him into slavery in Egypt years before, that they had intended it for evil but God intended it for good./abe}

And 9/11 was also a display of great mercies by God. There are many miracle stories from that day, people who know God protected them in various ways. Overall it was a love tap of a judgment compared to what judgment can be. a reminder to repent. But we haven't and we won't. Some churches may have repented on behalf of the nation, I hope so, but very few because it was clear from the Christian reaction on that day that most of them wrongly thought of it the way you do.

so unbelievably far from what Jesus lived and taught, and this is what happens when Christians make a false idol out of the Bible instead of actually following Jesus. Your understanding of God becomes no different than the god of the 9/11 terrorists.

Well, not at all because the God of Islam has his followers murder people who reject him. The true God makes precise judgments for known sins. Understanding how God functions in this world is something we are charged to do: the Old Testament was "given for our admonition" it says somewhere in the New Testament. We are supposed to understand God's workings in the world, His judgments for sin and so on. It's supposed to benefit us to know that. We remain ignorant of most of the things that happen in the world if we treat the OT the way you do and unfortunately so many so called Christians do.

Yes God was involved that day. He was active in the hearts of those who risked their lives rescuing people and in the hearts of those that reached out to the families of the victims. He suffered with those who lost their lives and their families.

All that is ALSO true. But since you hate the God of the Old Testament you will never get the whole picture and will always miss God's judgments against sin, and when they are missed and denied they accumulate and bring on worse judgment.

Again, Jesus came to suffer and save, but He's coming again to judge the earth. You see Him only in the role you like.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-11-2018 11:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 586 by GDR, posted 10-12-2018 1:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 575 of 669 (841376)
10-11-2018 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:50 PM


Re: God's Justice
And 9/11 was also a display of great mercies by God. There are many miracle stories from that day, people who know God protected them in various ways.

His mercies are enduring!!!! Which part though? The death by suffocation? Death by incineration? Death by blunt force trauma from the fall? Or one guy who, by blind luck, survived on a slab of concrete underneath a cushion of air?

Hundreds upon hundreds of Christians died that day. And a single person lived. What metric do you think God uses to spare some and have others die through pure suffering?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 9:58 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 576 of 669 (841385)
10-12-2018 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:21 PM


Re: Genocide - clearing up the confusion
quote:

God is perfect. He can do no wrong. Like it or not it is justice when He wipes out a tribe of people, and we should learn from it what God considers deserving of such punishment because some nations are ripe for it today.

In other words - solely because the Bible says that God is guilty of ordering genocide - you claim that genocide can be a good thing. But you dont offer any real justification. More your statement even suggests that you want some nations to be exterminated.

quote:

In any case the word "genocide" has criminal connotations, therefore it does not apply.

And you remain confused because you ignore the points that have been raised. I repeat my point. Genocide does not merely have criminal connotations - the act of genocide has been decreed a crime. And by that definition God is - according to the Bible guilty. Its an open and shut case.

Using spin to try and obscure the facts is not honest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 577 of 669 (841394)
10-12-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Hyroglyphx
10-11-2018 11:15 PM


Re: God's Justice
Yes many people suffered and died, though overall a LOT fewer than could have been the case. And the mercy stories I've heard are, yes, those of just a few by comparison, but they include providential events that kept them away from the disaster, and events that helped them escape, including a woman who is sure it was an angel who held open a door for her as she was escaping from the tower. I don't know how God makes such decisions, but I'm happy to hear such stories. Usually the people then get involved in helping others.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-11-2018 11:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-14-2018 4:16 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 578 of 669 (841395)
10-12-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 572 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:31 PM


Re: God's Justice
Faith writes:

You see God as perfectly embodied in Jesus, as He came to us in His first advent. That way you limit Him to His work as savior and Suffering Servant and conveniently ignore that He is going to come again to destroy the enemies of God (Isaiah 61:2 and Revelation 19). He's God, GDR, He's God the Son; He was at the Creation; all things were made through Him. There is no way His character is any different from that of God the Father, who wiped out whole tribes for their idolatries. You are deceiving yourself.

I will ask a few questions which I doubt you will answer though they are worthy of consideration.
  • Who created the "enemies of God"? Did they choose to become His enemy? Without knowledge of Jesus back then, how was there any way out? What was expected of these primitive people from God? Arguably the Jewish Nation was no more saintly than the heathens....except it was chosen by God.

  • Are we any better today than people were back then?

  • An argument is often made that if God foreknows an individuals or nations destiny before the judgement than that makes God responsible for evil as well as good. I was taught that God is good. jar always maintained that God was complete and had both good and evil tendencies as written...though jar believed that humans made up God as they understood Him. You start with the presupposition that the Bible perfectly describes God. If so, and if you believe God reveals Himself to those who seek Him, what do you think He expects modern people to do? Is the US any better than her enemies?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 572 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:31 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 579 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:08 AM Phat has responded
     Message 581 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 583 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:56 AM Phat has responded

      
  • Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    (1)
    Message 579 of 669 (841397)
    10-12-2018 10:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 578 by Phat
    10-12-2018 10:00 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    I will ask a few questions which I doubt you will answer though they are worthy of consideration.

    Who created the "enemies of God"? Did they choose to become His enemy?

    The Bible says we are all enemies of God by nature, due to the Fall.

    Without knowledge of Jesus back then, how was there any way out? What was expected of these primitive people from God?

    Nineveh repented in sackcloth and ashes when Jonah preached to them that God was going to judge them, and God withheld the judgment.

    Arguably the Jewish Nation was no more saintly than the heathens....except it was chosen by God.

    There is no difference between the people God chooses and those He doesn't. We're all sinners. He has to teach us and mold us into something else.

    Are we any better today than people were back then?

    Maybe worse.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 578 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:00 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 580 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:13 AM Faith has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11309
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 580 of 669 (841398)
    10-12-2018 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 579 by Faith
    10-12-2018 10:08 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Good answers.

    Ninevah evidently knew enough about God to choose to repent. Did all of the heathen nations have similar knowledge?

    And again...does God foreknow who will choose Him and who won't?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 579 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:08 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 582 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 581 of 669 (841399)
    10-12-2018 10:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 578 by Phat
    10-12-2018 10:00 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Somehow missed this, confused it with your signature I think.

    An argument is often made that if God foreknows an individuals or nations destiny before the judgement than that makes God responsible for evil as well as good. I was taught that God is good. jar always maintained that God was complete and had both good and evil tendencies as written...though jar believed that humans made up God as they understood Him. You start with the presupposition that the Bible perfectly describes God. If so, and if you believe God reveals Himself to those who seek Him, what do you think He expects modern people to do? Is the US any better than her enemies?

    God is good and we make a mistake applying our standards to Him.

    1 John 1:5:

    God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Repent and believe is what Jesus tells us to do.

    The US used to be the best nation on earth because of our strong Christian heritage. That is no longer the case and we are doing things that deserve God's judgment..


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 578 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 582 of 669 (841400)
    10-12-2018 10:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 580 by Phat
    10-12-2018 10:13 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Good answers.

    Just what the Bible teaches.

    Ninevah evidently knew enough about God to choose to repent. Did all of the heathen nations have similar knowledge?

    That's an interesting question and I don't know. The Old Testament describes incidents where the heathen nations. or at least individuals from those nations, came to learn that Israel's God is the Creator God as opposed to all the lesser tribal gods they were familiar with. Rahab tells the spies from Israel that all Jericho is quaking from fear of them because they know what God has done for them.

    There were already prophets and holy men of the true God among the heathen though. Balaam was one. Job was one. Melchizedek who met Abraham was a "priest of the most high God," so there was apparently a range of knowledge among the peoples.

    And again...does God foreknow who will choose Him and who won't?

    I'm a Calvinist, Phat, I believe God does the choosing and doesn't merely "foreknow" things but predestines them.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 580 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 583 of 669 (841401)
    10-12-2018 10:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 578 by Phat
    10-12-2018 10:00 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Curious. You describe jar in the past tense. Has he left EvC?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 578 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 10:00 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 584 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 11:14 AM Faith has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11309
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 584 of 669 (841402)
    10-12-2018 11:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 583 by Faith
    10-12-2018 10:56 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    I think he may have some health problems. Keep him in prayer.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 583 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 10:56 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 585 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 11:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    (2)
    Message 585 of 669 (841406)
    10-12-2018 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 584 by Phat
    10-12-2018 11:14 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Yes I will certainly pray for him.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 584 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 11:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

        
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