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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours If you're going to say things like that, why are we discussing anytthing? In your Alice in Wonderland world words have no meaning or any meaning you like. And, incredibly, you are now saying that what god predestines, humans can change. Apart from the utter stupidity of the obvious contradiction, it also strikes me that it's heresy.
What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established. So we have absolutely no idea what god's intent is and moreover we can't know. Yet you know you're saved and you've spent the last 15 years explaining his will. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: No, that is not what I said. This is what you said:
Faith writes: What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established. I'll say it again because you appear to be hard of reasoning. If god predestines each of our lives, we can't change anything. If he doesn't, we can. It's binary. If we can only 'choose' what he has predestined, there is no choice.
Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard. I think my problem is in thinking that the garbage you write has any discernible, rational meaning. As for being hard, you bet it is, only Humpty Dumpty could fathom your thinking.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period. Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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He got the organ wrong.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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The UK's very own gay cake case was resolved in the supreme court today in favour of the bakers.
On balance I think I agree; it wasn't discrimination against an individual, it was about a message on a cake which is about free speech. Ashers 'gay cake' row: Bakers win Supreme Court appeal - BBC NewsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
There's pdf here:
Lee (Respondent) v Ashers Baking Company Ltd and others (Appellants) (Northern Ireland) - The Supreme Court The press summary is probably easiest
quote: Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: On the basis of these comments I'd like to hire these judges to sit on our cases. It feels like a sensible judgement to me, though some seem to think they found a loophole that allowed a good fudge. It may yet go to the Court of Human Rights in Europe so probably best to hold back cheering for a bit.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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To summarise.
Refusing to sell a cake to a gay person because s/he is gay would be discrimination Refusing to put a (any?) message on a cake that you object to is not discrimination. I think also that refusing to sell a cake to anybody because it would be used at a gay wedding would be discrimination? The reason being that discrimination must be against people, not ideas.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: I put it aside as incomprehensible, which is how I still see it. It's not that hard. My translation: The message alone did not indicate that the customer was gay as anyone might wish to promote that message. Thus there was no discrimination on sexual orientation grounds. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Phillips' conscience was engaged by knowing it was for a gay wedding, and a wedding cake is a very particular item that can be for nothing else than a wedding. He'd have had to work with the two men to design it to their requirements so it would engage him at many levels. My reading of the UK judgement would make that pretty cleary discrimination. They're refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple only because it will be used at a gay wedding.
Not that they'd care or anybody else of course, gay marriage is more important than anybody's conscience, That's not correct. Fighting harmful discrimination is more important than anybody's dumb prejudice regardless of its source.
most especially a Christian conscience. The law applies to everyone, to all faiths and none. Get over your martyrdom.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: My reading was that if they judge against a person's being forced to write something in favor of gay marriage, that they would be equally against forcing a person to provide a special service for a gay wedding, since it is gay marriage which is the thing being refused, not the persons. A message promoting gay marriage is quite clearly in free speech territory and could be asked for by anybody (gay or not) for any purpose (gay wedding or no wedding at all). That was the judgement. A wedding cake for a gay wedding is specifically for gay people and to refuse to sell them a standard wedding cake for their wedding is discrimination against them personally. (If that was the situation.)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: I don't think there is even such a thing as a "standard" wedding cake. They are specialty items, custom designed for the occasion to the specifications of the parties to be married. By 'standard' I mean a wedding cake that is non-gender specific, one that could be used at any wedding - even if it is a custom design.
If it was just a matter of buying a standard cake out of the display case there would be no problem, they could do with it whatever they like. Well that's progess of sorts, you're now happy to sell an off the shelf wedding cake to a gay couple.
It's the engagement of the baker in a creative endeavor that is the problem. And it IS about gay marriage, not about the persons. But if the gay couple talk to the baker about what they want and what they want it for - even if there's no message, it's just a cake that looks like a wedding cake looks - they can't have it? That would be outright discrimination.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
If the baker is inistent on behaving like a puritanical dickhed, then that is indeed the way it will go.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Exactly. And there's the persecution you want to deny. Yeh, it's true martyrdom for the cause. They can be made saints for being fined for refusing to sell a cake. Enjoy. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Nothing there about gay marriage, either banning it or endorsing it. Nor is it terribly surprising that men will cleave unto their wives.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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