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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1208 of 1484 (835625)
06-26-2018 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Faith
06-26-2018 6:41 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:
What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours
If you're going to say things like that, why are we discussing anytthing? In your Alice in Wonderland world words have no meaning or any meaning you like.
And, incredibly, you are now saying that what god predestines, humans can change. Apart from the utter stupidity of the obvious contradiction, it also strikes me that it's heresy.
What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.
So we have absolutely no idea what god's intent is and moreover we can't know. Yet you know you're saved and you've spent the last 15 years explaining his will.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:27 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1216 of 1484 (835633)
06-26-2018 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1209 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:27 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:
No, that is not what I said.
This is what you said:
Faith writes:
What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.
I'll say it again because you appear to be hard of reasoning. If god predestines each of our lives, we can't change anything. If he doesn't, we can. It's binary.
If we can only 'choose' what he has predestined, there is no choice.
Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard.
I think my problem is in thinking that the garbage you write has any discernible, rational meaning. As for being hard, you bet it is, only Humpty Dumpty could fathom your thinking.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1218 of 1484 (835635)
06-26-2018 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1217 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:51 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:
From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period.
Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1217 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1278 of 1484 (838253)
08-17-2018 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by Faith
08-16-2018 10:57 PM


Re: Jack Phillips shows his utter ignorance yet again.
He got the organ wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 10:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1308 of 1484 (841270)
10-10-2018 4:30 PM


The UK's very own gay cake case was resolved in the supreme court today in favour of the bakers.
On balance I think I agree; it wasn't discrimination against an individual, it was about a message on a cake which is about free speech.
Ashers 'gay cake' row: Bakers win Supreme Court appeal - BBC News

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1309 by Faith, posted 10-10-2018 8:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1310 of 1484 (841288)
10-11-2018 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1309 by Faith
10-10-2018 8:00 PM


There's pdf here:
Lee (Respondent) v Ashers Baking Company Ltd and others (Appellants) (Northern Ireland) - The Supreme Court
The press summary is probably easiest
quote:
REASONS FOR THE JUDGMENT
The sexual orientation claim
The district judge found that the appellants did not refuse to fulfil Mr Lee’s order because of his actual or perceived sexual orientation. The objection was to the message on the cake, not any personal characteristics of the messenger [22], or anyone with whom he was associated [33-34]. The message was not indissociable from the sexual orientation of the customer, as support for gay marriage was not a proxy for any particular sexual orientation [25]. The benefit of the message accrues not only to gay or bisexual people, but to their families and friends and to the wider community who recognise the social benefits which such commitment can bring [33]. Thus, there was no discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation in this case.
The political beliefs claim
Protection against direct discrimination on grounds of religious belief or political opinion has constitutional status in Northern Ireland [37]. The discrimination has to be on the ground of the religion or belief of someone other than the alleged discriminator [43-45]. As the appellants’ objection was not to Mr Lee, but to being required to promote the message on the cake, the situation was not comparable with people being refused jobs or services simply because of their religious faith, but it was arguable that the message was indissociable from Mr Lee’s political opinion. It was therefore necessary to consider the impact of the McArthurs’ ECHR rights on the meaning and effect of FETO [48].
Impact of ECHR rights
The rights to freedom of thought, conscience and religion (article 9) and to freedom of expression (article 10) were clearly engaged by this case [49]. They include the right not to be obliged to manifest beliefs one does not hold [52]. The McArthurs could not refuse to provide their products to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or because he supported gay marriage, but that was different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed [55]. FETO should not be read or given effect in such a way as to compel them to do so unless justification was shown, and it had not been in this case [56, 62].
Jurisdiction
The appellants were entitled to appeal to the Supreme Court in relation to FETO notwithstanding their election to appeal to the Court of Appeal by way of case stated. Although such appeals are usually final under article 61(6) of the County Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1980 (‘article 61(6)’), there is an exception in section 42(6) Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 in respect of decisions involving any question as to the validity of measures of the Northern Ireland Assembly. FETO was equivalent to such a measure and the appellants did challenge its validity if it failed to protect their rights. It was not necessary to decide whether this also permitted the SORs appeal, given the overlap in the circumstances, because of the Supreme Court’s conclusions on the Attorney General’s references [63- 71].
The Court of Appeal had been wrong to reject the reference requested by the Attorney General under paragraph 33 on the ground the proceedings were concluded. In principle, appeals are against orders not judgments and, in this context, it is natural to regard the proceedings as live until a final order is issued. This error had deprived the appellants of the inevitably different judgment on the question of whether the SORs imposed civil liability on them for their refusal to express a political opinion contrary to their religious beliefs, which would have eventually followed. An appeal to the Supreme Court following such a procedural error was not precluded by article 61(6), which was focused on the point of law not on a challenge to the fairness or regularity of the Court of Appeal’s process. Even though the error was collateral to the litigation between the appellants and Mr Lee, it would be overly technical to deny the appellants the benefit of the proper handling of the reference. An appeal therefore lay to the Supreme Court against all aspects of the Court of Appeal’s judgment, including its decision in respect of the alleged discrimination under the SORs as well as under FETO [76-90].
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by Faith, posted 10-10-2018 8:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1311 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 8:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1312 of 1484 (841312)
10-11-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1311 by Faith
10-11-2018 8:48 AM


Faith writes:
On the basis of these comments I'd like to hire these judges to sit on our cases.
It feels like a sensible judgement to me, though some seem to think they found a loophole that allowed a good fudge.
It may yet go to the Court of Human Rights in Europe so probably best to hold back cheering for a bit.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1311 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 8:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1314 of 1484 (841317)
10-11-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1313 by caffeine
10-11-2018 11:23 AM


To summarise.
Refusing to sell a cake to a gay person because s/he is gay would be discrimination
Refusing to put a (any?) message on a cake that you object to is not discrimination.
I think also that refusing to sell a cake to anybody because it would be used at a gay wedding would be discrimination?
The reason being that discrimination must be against people, not ideas.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 11:23 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1315 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 1:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1321 of 1484 (841337)
10-11-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:04 PM


Faith writes:
I put it aside as incomprehensible, which is how I still see it.
It's not that hard. My translation:
The message alone did not indicate that the customer was gay as anyone might wish to promote that message.
Thus there was no discrimination on sexual orientation grounds.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1322 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:14 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1326 of 1484 (841387)
10-12-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1324 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:58 PM


Faith writes:
Phillips' conscience was engaged by knowing it was for a gay wedding, and a wedding cake is a very particular item that can be for nothing else than a wedding. He'd have had to work with the two men to design it to their requirements so it would engage him at many levels.
My reading of the UK judgement would make that pretty cleary discrimination. They're refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple only because it will be used at a gay wedding.
Not that they'd care or anybody else of course, gay marriage is more important than anybody's conscience,
That's not correct. Fighting harmful discrimination is more important than anybody's dumb prejudice regardless of its source.
most especially a Christian conscience.
The law applies to everyone, to all faiths and none. Get over your martyrdom.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1324 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1328 of 1484 (841448)
10-13-2018 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Faith
10-12-2018 7:01 PM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:
My reading was that if they judge against a person's being forced to write something in favor of gay marriage, that they would be equally against forcing a person to provide a special service for a gay wedding, since it is gay marriage which is the thing being refused, not the persons.
A message promoting gay marriage is quite clearly in free speech territory and could be asked for by anybody (gay or not) for any purpose (gay wedding or no wedding at all). That was the judgement.
A wedding cake for a gay wedding is specifically for gay people and to refuse to sell them a standard wedding cake for their wedding is discrimination against them personally. (If that was the situation.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 10-12-2018 7:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1329 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1330 of 1484 (841451)
10-13-2018 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by Faith
10-13-2018 2:50 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:
I don't think there is even such a thing as a "standard" wedding cake. They are specialty items, custom designed for the occasion to the specifications of the parties to be married.
By 'standard' I mean a wedding cake that is non-gender specific, one that could be used at any wedding - even if it is a custom design.
If it was just a matter of buying a standard cake out of the display case there would be no problem, they could do with it whatever they like.
Well that's progess of sorts, you're now happy to sell an off the shelf wedding cake to a gay couple.
It's the engagement of the baker in a creative endeavor that is the problem. And it IS about gay marriage, not about the persons.
But if the gay couple talk to the baker about what they want and what they want it for - even if there's no message, it's just a cake that looks like a wedding cake looks - they can't have it?
That would be outright discrimination.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1331 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1332 of 1484 (841456)
10-13-2018 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1331 by Faith
10-13-2018 4:03 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
If the baker is inistent on behaving like a puritanical dickhed, then that is indeed the way it will go.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 5:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1334 of 1484 (841463)
10-13-2018 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Faith
10-13-2018 5:19 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
Faith writes:
Exactly. And there's the persecution you want to deny.
Yeh, it's true martyrdom for the cause. They can be made saints for being fined for refusing to sell a cake. Enjoy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 5:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1347 of 1484 (841541)
10-15-2018 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1346 by Faith
10-15-2018 3:12 AM


Re: What God said about Marriage
Nothing there about gay marriage, either banning it or endorsing it. Nor is it terribly surprising that men will cleave unto their wives.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1346 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 3:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1348 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 3:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
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