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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 762 of 948 (841150)
10-08-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 758 by creation
10-08-2018 9:51 AM


Voyager 1 enters new space
Man does see beyond the fishbowl. ...
But you have no way to tell whether your fantasy fishbowl exists: it is pure speculation that you have conjured out of nothing.
Fascinating the delusions some people have.
... But it is pure fantasy to interpret all he sees here strictly by fishbowl rules...and that is what science does.
Tell us: absent any indication of any kind to the contrary, why should any rational person consider pure fantasy instead of what we know of how things operate? Every year the Voyager 1 Probe validates that approach, while at the same time pushing your fantasy fishbowl further and further in the realms of delusion.
quote:
Voyager 1 - Wikipedia
... At a distance of 142.31 astronomical units (2.12891010 km; 1.32291010 mi) (21.289 billion kilometers; 13.229 billion miles) from the Sun as of June 4, 2018,[3] it is the most distant man-made object from Earth.[4]
Seems you've put all your eggs in a shrinking, empty basket ... and it is still empty. Imagine that.
addendum:
But that's not all, the Voyager 1 probe provides additional validation of the scientific approach:
quote:
After completing its primary mission with the flyby of Saturn on November 12, 1980, Voyager 1 became the third of five artificial objects to achieve the escape velocity that will allow them to leave the Solar System. On August 25, 2012, Voyager 1 became the first spacecraft to cross the heliopause and enter the interstellar medium.[8] ...
Interstellar Medium
On September 12, 2013, NASA officially confirmed that Voyager 1 had reached the interstellar medium in August 2012 as previously observed, with a generally accepted date of August 25, 2012 (~10d short of 34yrs since launch), the date durable changes in the density of energetic particles were first detected.[62][63][64] ... A key finding that persuaded many scientists that the heliopause had been crossed was an indirect measurement of an 80-fold increase in electron density, based on the frequency of plasma oscillations observed beginning on April 9, 2013,[63] triggered by a solar outburst that had occurred in March 2012[60] (electron density is expected to be two orders of magnitude higher outside the heliopause than within).[62] Weaker sets of oscillations measured in October and November 2012[72][75] provided additional data. An indirect measurement was required because Voyager 1's plasma spectrometer had stopped working in 1980.[64] In September 2013, NASA released audio renditions of these plasma waves. The recordings represent the first sounds to be captured in interstellar space.[76]
This means that Voyager 1 is now in a place that is not like anything we have experienced before ... but which was predicted by scientific theory developed from what we know.
That's how science works ... and works ... and works ... and keeps on working.
Sorry to burst your bubble, again.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : addendum

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:51 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by dwise1, posted 10-08-2018 2:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 774 of 948 (841207)
10-09-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by creation
10-09-2018 12:27 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
Voyager is not even one light day away!!! Yet you make claims for billions of light years away!!!!!!!!?
This is called the logical fallacy of the red herring misdirection, where your response has no actual bearing to the Voyager 1 issue:
Message 762(RAZD): This means that Voyager 1 is now in a place that is not like anything we have experienced before ... but which was predicted by scientific theory developed from what we know.
Your whole fantasy concocted argument is that science falsely assumes that conditions beyond our experience cannot actually be considered to be of the same nature as what we have experienced.
This fantasy concoction basis is now falsified by actual experience matching predictions made by science from what we have previously experienced leading to this new experience.
and curiously it is now validated by Voyager 2:
quote:
Voyager 2 Detects Hints That Interstellar Space Is Nearby
Two of Voyager 2's instruments have measured an increase in the number of high-energy particles called cosmic rays hitting the spacecraft, according to a NASA release. Scientists think that the heliosphere, the region of particles and magnetic fields under the Sun’s influence, blocks some cosmic rays. An increase in their rate means that the probe could be nearing the heliopause, the heliosphere’s outer boundary.
Voyager 1 measured an increase in cosmic rays back in May 2012 before crossing the heliopause three months latera measurement accompanied by a sudden increase in the density of the ambient plasma. Perhaps Voyager 2 is now getting close, too, though one Princeton scientist who uses Voyager data, Jamie Rankin, stressed to Gizmodo that Voyager 2 hasn’t yet reached interstellar space.
These new measurements are based on direct measurements, while the ones from Voyager 1 were inferred from vibrations -- ie they use different detectors to measure the density change.
Gosh, scientifically gathered evidence of a "different nature" surrounding the solar system now being replicated, further validating the science.
... Yet you make claims for billions of light years away!!!!!!!!?
Claims (that were never mere assumptions) which now have much higher confidence with this new evidence validating the scientific model of the universe, while your assertion is weakened catastrophically.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by creation, posted 10-09-2018 12:27 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:09 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 796 of 948 (841445)
10-13-2018 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by creation
10-11-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
I will allow for man knowing about what the fishbowl is like. The voyager is in the fishbowl. Not even a light day away.
Curiously that is not the issue raised by voyager 1 entering a new, never experienced part of space that conforms to predictions made by the scientific model.
... The voyager is in the fishbowl. ...
How do you know this? How do you know it is not crossing the boundary? Because you say so is not sufficient.
Even there you admit the info is indirect.
The measurement from Voyager 1 was indirect, but it was verified by direct measurements from Voyager 2.
Apparently you don't seem to understand what that means.
Ha.
Says the person who once again embarrasses himself by not reading or not comprehending what the post says.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:09 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by creation, posted 10-13-2018 5:44 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 798 of 948 (841513)
10-14-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by creation
10-13-2018 5:44 PM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
If man goes further than the fishbowl (which merely represents where we have gone) gets bigger. Not even a light day yet!!!!!
In other words the "fishbowl" is a meaningless concept with no value to science or rational thought. It's just another god-of-the-gaps argument for people that don't want to accept the reality of science.
The limits of where probes have been are clear. It has been almost no where at all..one lousy light day...even less. Forgive me if I do not accept your belief that this is how all of God's universe has to be.
Bingo, god-of-the-gaps in living technicolor. This is what all your arguments on all these threads are: a desperate attempt to deny and ignore any and all scientific findings that contradict your belief.
Sadly, for you, science is not at all concerned or threatened in any way by your beliefs and desires.
As for the indirect measurements we get from the probes, it would take another thread to discuss whether they could be misread. Not that it matters since the fishbowl is so comically tiny!!!
Don't bother, you apparently cannot fathom the concept of one →1← (ONE) set of data being inferred, that is THEN validated by ANOTHER set of data that is NOT inferred. Try reading for content before you bather more idiocy on this matter.
Science works on the principle that IF what we know now from all the current scientific investigations is true, THEN what can we predict about matters that have not yet been covered by scientific investigations.
Working on this basis predictions are made and then tested.
Guess what? This approach led to the prediction that outside the heliopause it would then experience a type of space different from what we had previously experienced, that the interstellar medium with a significantly higher electron density. This was first noted by Voyager 1 and then confirmed by Voyager 2.
Scientific Knowledge → Prediction → Test → Validation
Your approach: You cannot know what is outside the "fishbowl" → no prediction → no test → no validation ... oh look Voyager 2 showed a different nature ... I told you it would not be the same as before ... and now you can't know what is outside the new ever changing plastic elastic magical modifying "fishbowl" ... more useless god-of-the-gaps
... except for those who need to be coddled and protected from learning.
By the same scientific approach we estimate the distance to stars by a number of methods, the one to SN1987A (the subject of this thread) using direct math rather than the means used on other stars. It validates the scientific predictions made on the basis of current knowledge.
You claim we cannot know this, not for any specific reason, just plain denial rather than showing any errors in the scientific approach. Your reason for doing this is because you don't want to know, you want to huddle in ignorance rather than face facts.
Kinda sad and pathetic imho
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by creation, posted 10-13-2018 5:44 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by creation, posted 10-14-2018 1:11 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 803 of 948 (841538)
10-14-2018 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by creation
10-14-2018 1:11 PM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space
No. In other words the fishbowl is where you live and where you experience time and space here, and is no bigger than where we have been and know about. Divide the 14 billion light years or whatever you claim the universe to be by light days! Then you will see that the limits of where man has been represents almost nowhere in the universe.
Irrelevant. This does not invalidate the topic - falsifying a young universe.
There is nothing to deny whatsoever here in the fishbowl. What I question is your unsupportable beliefs about what is in the far universe.
Except that the calculations of the distance to SN1987A are supported by the evidence used (given previously in this thread) and simple high school math.
Except that belief is not involved, rather it is theory (science is based on theory) and testing: IF the universe behaves according to our current understanding, THEN what can we predict, and how do we test the predictions?
You can question all you want to, but your questions are irrelevant until you SHOW evidence of the nature of the universe being different in some way. A nobel prize awaits anyone who can. You, however have squat.
Science predicts based on realities here in the fishbowl. That premise is no good unless the time and space in the far reaches of the universe are the very same as here. ...
That is indeed the theoretical basis, and it holds until it is falsified by evidence showing such predictions are invalid. This has occurred several times in the past, and the theoretical model has been adjusted to match new information, resulting in our current model for the universe.
This too may be invalidated, but only by new evidence, not by some creationist crying in a corner that it doesn't match his beliefs.
... The fact that things less than one light day away seem to be similar means nothing. You only have blind faith.
No, it means the model is valid to that point. The fact that predicted increases in electron density were first detected by Voyager 1 and then corroborated by Voyager 2 means that the prediction was tested and not invalidated.
THAT is not blind faith. It is verified prediction, adding to our knowledge base and allowing for further predictions.
It is appalling that creationists seem so incapable of understanding the difference between blind faith (theirs) and science.
Blind Faith is belief in spite of evidence to the contrary, this applies generally to religious faith and specifically creationist faith in a young universe. Science, on the other hand, modifies theory to incorporate evidence to the contrary. Big difference.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by creation, posted 10-14-2018 1:11 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by creation, posted 10-19-2018 9:29 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 807 of 948 (841709)
10-20-2018 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by creation
10-19-2018 9:29 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space ... maybe
There is no evidence for distance to SN1987a. ...
Wrong. There is evidence, the fact that you ignore it does not make it go away.
... What is used is faith alone n the form of lines that are supposed to represent equal time and space. All based on the view from earth and area.
Wrong again. The fact that you ignore the meaning of the game first mentioned in Message 238:
quote:
(T{light from ring} - T{light from star})x(cnow) = (Dstar to ring to us - Dstar to us)
and for very small angles like this
(less than 1o, and we are talking less than 0.01o)
tan ~= sin and d ~= h (99.999% or better?) so
(Dstar to ring to us) ~= (Dstar to us + Dstar to ring)
and thus
(Dstar to ring to us - Dstar to us) ~= ((Dstar to us + Dstar to ring) - Dstar to us)
= (Dstar to ring) == (T{light from ring} - T{light from star})x(cnow)
You could make a board game with say a thousand steps between the start and the end and 10 steps from the start to a point P and then a thousand steps from point P to the end, then throw a pair of dice and move both of two markers by that same amount, and the markers will always be 10 steps apart at the end.
As you can see from the equations time is irrelevant until the light enters our space-time (your dishbowl), and distance can be as random as you like until the light enters our space-time as well. This is further described in Message 599:
quote:
Okay, ... I like to call the game star checkers:
It's a board game with two pieces, their movement is determined by the throw of a di, both move the amount shown on the di.
One takes a path from the star to the earth, the other takes a detour to the ring and then to the earth
Click on the image to enlarge it.
The ring is shown highly eccentric to show that we use the major axis as the diameter of the ring, the eccentricity is caused by the ring tilting away from a perfectly perpendicular plane to our line of sight. We KNOW the ring is actually circular because the whole ring lit up at the same time.
Each of the three lines is composed of dots with the exact same spacing from dot to dot, they are distance increments.
We start with both playing pieces at the star and throw the di, then move both pieces the amount of dots shown on the di, which varies from 1 to 6 in a random pattern.
Player piece A moves along the line from the star (lower left) to the earth (at the right)
Player piece B moves along the lines from the star to the ring (upper left) and then from the ring to the earth without stopping at the ring.
When player piece A reaches the earth we are in the modern (1987) era with consistent speed of light and travel distances ...
so we keep repeating the last distance thrown on the di until player piece B reaches the earth.
The difference in time between player piece A reaching the earth and player piece B reaching the earth is then multiplied by the modern (1987) era speed of light both are experiencing gives us an accurate measure of the distance from the star to the ring.
This time is known. This calculation of the distance between the star and the ring is thus a known fact.
Thank you for playing.
You can choose what ever distance or time interval you like, and the results will be the same.
When science cooks up a new godless explanation pulled from it's tiny bag of tricks, it is based on faith alone. Like 'gee, if the comets did not fill the oceans, I guess the asteroids must have dunnit'
Still not understanding how science works. Science does not use any concept just because someone wants to, it has to have evidence to be used. That is why it describes natural behavior and not supernatural/mythical/made-up behavior.
In the case of Voyager, it is less than a light day away so is irrelevant to the topic of the far universe.
Wrong again. If it validates the current model then we can proceed on that basis -- evidence based theory -- t0 the far universe, make predictions and then test them -- one step at a time.
Not having experienced anything different yet has no meaning to the far universe at all.
Au contraire, it means we can keep going on the basis of the current evidence based model of the universe.
Even so, I notice they still found they had it wrong in some ways! Ha.
"
On August 25, 2012, something dramatic happened: Voyager 1 stopped getting hit with particles and started detecting cosmic rays for the first time. But the magnetic field didn't change direction, which is what you'd expect if the spacecraft had left the solar system.
So Voyager 1 appears to be in a strange, unexpected region, and scientists aren't sure why such a strange place exists"
So a Popular Mechanics article that is 5 years old, by a journalist ... is an authority on science?
Here's the Science letter it is based on: Voyager may not have entered interstellar space, after all ... this still is not a peer reviewed science paper, but compared to the Popular Mechanic article it is more informative of the science involved.
quote:
Nearly a year after NASA trumpeted Voyager 1’s departure from the sun’s protective bubble, two mission scientists argue that the spacecraft never left. Many astronomers are doubtful about the assertion, but the debate illustrates that the transition from solar bubble to interstellar space is not clear-cut.
hen in September, after months of speculation, mission scientists finally announced that Voyager 1 had exited the heliosphere on August 25, 2012 (SN Online: 9/12/13). The proof, they said, came via a blast wave from the sun that jostled particles around the probe in April 2013. The vibrations of the particles suggested that the spacecraft was surrounded by a dense soup of galactic particles rather than a comparatively sparse fog of solar ones. Last week, on July 7, the researchers reaffirmed their conclusion after analyzing another solar outburst that reached Voyager in March.
However, Voyager has yet to detect what scientists long predicted would be the calling card of interstellar space: a shift in the direction of the magnetic field. Scientists had expected the probe to encounter particles under the influence of the interstellar magnetic field draped over the outer shell of the heliosphere, inducing an abrupt shift. But the direction has remained stubbornly constant, and researchers can’t explain why. This whole region is a lot messier than anyone dreamed of, Christian says.
It’s a bit too messy for George Gloeckler and Lennard Fisk, Voyager scientists at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. They wondered whether the magnetic field and particle density conditions measured by Voyager could exist within the heliosphere. In a paper accepted for publication in Geophysical Research Letters, Gloeckler and Fisk argue that the outer heliosphere could allow an influx of galactic particles from beyond the bubble that would explain the density measurements.
The researchers’ analysis includes a way to definitively test the idea: If Voyager 1 is within the heliosphere, Gloeckler and Fisk note, then it should still be at the mercy of the sun’s magnetic field. If that were the case, within a year or so, Voyager should detect a 180-degree flip in the field’s direction, a regular occurrence caused by the sun’s rotation. If that happens, Gloeckler says, Len and I will have a big celebration.
It’s a very good paper, says Stephen Fuselier, a space scientist at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio. They came up with a bold, testable prediction.
Voyager should provide more clarity by next year with the help of more blast wave measurements and the possibility of the 180-degree magnetic field shift. In the meantime, Christian says, scientists have to remain patient. Trying to characterize a vast unexplored region of space with one probe is like trying to understand an ocean with a single buoy.
Within several years, another buoy should reach the vicinity of the heliosphere boundary: Voyager 2, which unlike its sibling, sports a functioning instrument to take continuous measurements of particle density and temperature. Voyager observations have surprised us over the years, Fuselier says. We’re just waiting for more surprises.
Scientists like surprises, because that is when you learn new things. What we need is follow up from 2015 when the solar magnetic field flipped.
Personally I would be surprised that the boundary was hard and fast, and think it would be subject to wavering with solar blasts, much in the way that a river entering the ocean has a messy boundary.
The quotes from Stone come from another letter in the same issue, At last, Voyager 1 slips into interstellar space:
quote:
The first evidence that Voyager had reached that boundary appeared on July 28, 2012, when the number of solar particles measured by Voyager plummeted. But the particle count rebounded a few days later. Three similar dips and recoveries occurred in the following weeks until August 25, when solar particles disappeared for good (SN Online: 6/27/13). The solar particle measurement, combined with a surge in higher-energy particles from other stars, suggested that Voyager had exited the heliosphere and reached the promised land. Several well-publicized studies made that claim.
Stone and his colleagues resisted that conclusion. They lacked evidence of what they thought would be the key signature of interstellar space: a shift in the direction of the magnetic field. Solar plasma produces a distinctive magnetic field because it all comes from the same source; scientists expected that the field would shift in interstellar space, where particles flit around in all directions. Despite the particle evidence that Voyager had departed the heliosphere, the magnetic field direction remained constant. We felt we did not have the smoking gun to say that we had left the solar bubble, Stone says.
Donald Gurnett, a Voyager scientist at the University of Iowa, found a way to get the measurement anyway. Poring over data from another instrument on the spacecraft, Gurnett discovered that in April 2013 a blast wave from the sun, the same kind that can cause solar storms on Earth, had reached Voyager’s neck of the woods and jostled electrons in the surrounding plasma. It was the first such energetic solar shock in nine years. In that sense we were lucky, Stone says.
Gurnett then used the frequency of the electron vibrations to calculate that plasma surrounding Voyager 1 was about 50 times as dense as scientists would expect inside the heliosphere, a sign that the spacecraft had entered interstellar space.
Not everyone agrees, including a few holdouts on the Voyager team. George Gloeckler and Lennard Fisk, both from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, have written a paper demonstrating how plasma could become dense enough within the heliosphere to produce Gurnett’s measurement. Gurnett definitely measured the density correctly, Gloeckler says. But I don’t believe you can say that what he measured is the interstellar plasma.
Barring a change in the magnetic field, Gloeckler believes the team should wait another two or three years for Voyager 2, which has a working instrument to measure the density and temperature of plasma, to reach a similar position in space. Voyager 2 will experimentally answer this question, he says. Why rush to conclusions now?
Zank and many other astrophysicists say the evidence is overwhelming that Voyager 1 has crossed the heliopause, but they acknowledge that they have to determine why the magnetic field direction didn’t shift. At the same time, scientists are combing through more than a year’s worth of data Voyager 1 has collected since entering interstellar space. NASA estimates that Voyager 1 has enough plutonium fuel to keep all its instruments powered for another seven years, giving the probe plenty of time to measure an environment littered with particles that originated in distant stars and violent supernovas. All this will give us considerable insight into what’s happening in the far reaches of the galaxy, Zank says.
Even so, I notice they still found they had it wrong in some ways! Ha.
What these letters show is that there is some disagreement over the results, not that they "had it wrong." This is not uncommon with new findings in science, and why further testing is always needed.
And this is still old news, what we need is follow up on Voyager 1 and the information from Voyager 2 to clarify the issue.
Not having experienced anything different yet has no meaning to the far universe at all.
Except that it did experience something different -- the "plasma surrounding Voyager 1 was about 50 times as dense as scientists would expect inside the heliosphere."
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by creation, posted 10-19-2018 9:29 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by creation, posted 10-20-2018 10:10 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 811 of 948 (841716)
10-20-2018 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by creation
10-20-2018 10:10 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space ... Voyager 2 follows ...
If you look at this pic,
https://www.sciencenews.org/...les/images/voyager_oort_0.jpg
you see a little yellow dot in the center. Some folks include the Oort cloud and comets whose orbits involve the sun as basically part of the solar system. (either way it goes to showing how far voyager has gone)
So far I guess we could say Voyager has went approx to the edges of the yellow dot!! So, in the universe, that is nowhere. Yes, they experienced some surprises even in the yellow dot. Whoopee doo.
Glad you followed the link and looked at the other letters. Funny how you are now using he Oort Cloud when it is outside your "fishbowl" to make comments that are still as meaningless in terms of the validity of the current space-time model as your previous comments on the size of your "fishbowl" ...
In the SN lines you drew, one line goes from the edge of the ring to the center..right? Then you use that line with lines drawn to earth...right? If so there is a problem here that is fatal.
We do not know what time is like where the star is. ...
As shown by the formulas, time is irrelevant where the star is. Thus any argument based on time is irrelevant.
... So any line from the center of the star area to the rings or whatever would represent unknown time and space. ...
And time in that sector is still irrelevant, as shown by the equations.
... You cannot draw a line to earth, and then measure the whole thing as if it represented time and space here. ...
Which, amusingly, is not what was done, nor is it how the equations work, and it is not what playing the game shows. It appears you are functionally incapable (cognitive dissonance?) of understanding this.
... That is religion. Playing games.
I think that covers your points.
Nope. Denial, non-comprehension, and unevidenced assertions are not arguments that cover points supported by evidence.
Getting back to the Voyagers ... Voyager 2 is almost outside the sun's protective bubble gives us an update (October 9, 2018):
quote:
The Voyager 2 spacecraft, which left Earth more than 40 years ago to survey the outer planets, just detected a 5 percent uptick in these cosmic refugees, NASA announced. The new measurements bring a long-expected sign that the probe is approaching the edge of the sun’s protective influence, which for many researchers defines the line between interplanetary and interstellar space. Crossing that boundary will provide a valuable second data point in the quest to determine its shape, but precisely when the probe will leave the solar system remains unknown.
"We're seeing a change in the environment around Voyager 2, there's no doubt about that," said Voyager Project Scientist Ed Stone of Caltech in a press release. "We're going to learn a lot in the coming months, but we still don't know when we'll reach the heliopause. We're not there yetthat's one thing I can say with confidence."
The rate of energetic interstellar particles detected by
Voyager 2 started to rise at the end of August 2018.
Each point represents a 6-hour average.
Charlie Wood using NASA data
If you feel like you’ve heard this story before, it’s because you have. The craft’s speedier sibling, Voyager 1, returned data showing a similar increase of interstellar cosmic rays in May of 2012. In addition to light, the sun also spits out a plasma of charged particles in all directions. Too hot to contain, this solar wind streams outward past the planets, pushing back on of the interstellar particles and creating a bubble researchers call the heliosphere. Three months later, on August 25th, Voyager’s aging instruments detected a drop in solar particles and a further rise in interstellar particlesstrong evidence that it had left the heliosphere at last.
A leaky balloon
All these boundaries could be moving with solar activity, and we really don't know where they are, says Merav Opher, an astronomer who studies the shape of the heliosphere at Boston University. At more active points in the sun’s 11-year cycle, such as the one we’re in now, the sun blows the heliosphere up like a balloon, pushing the boundary out by a handful of AU over the course of a couple years. Later in the cycle, a less active sun lets it deflate.
The shape of the heliosphere may not be as uniform as its name implies either. In general, nature doesn't have very smooth boundaries. The question is how bumpy and at what scale, Opher says. Her past simulations have suggested it may even be shaped more like the wake of a boat than a sphere.
Voyager 1’s close-up look at one point of that boundary brought a number of revelations. For one, the heliosphere is leakier than physicists had thought, equipped with a magnetic connection that allows an exchange of particles in some areas. Voyager 1 also revealed surprising features just past the edge. The probe has surfed a series of outwardly directed pulses triggered by sudden spurts of matter from the sun, and has detected an unexpectedly gentle pileup of interstellar material, suggesting that the solar system careens through the galaxy less wildly than astronomers had thought. Opher is even more excited for Voyager 2, sinceunlike Voyager 1it still has a working plasma instrument, and should be able to record first-of-a-kind data of both the boundary and the interstellar medium.
Solving that local mystery could have universal ramifications. Astronomers can see that the astrospheres around other stars also make waves in the space around them, but their plasma remains too sparse to probe directly. Figuring out how the sun shapes our neighborhood and protects us from some cosmic rays will be an essential step toward understanding where, and if, the same process is happening elsewhere.
If you want to study how life develops in other stellar systems, you need to understand how other astrospheres behave, Opher says. Let's start in our own backyard.
Start with what you know, build a model from that knowledge and then use it to make predictions that can be tested ... how science works.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by creation, posted 10-20-2018 10:10 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by creation, posted 10-21-2018 9:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 816 of 948 (841753)
10-21-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by creation
10-21-2018 9:12 AM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space ... Voyager 2 follows ...
Oort cloud....the possibly imaginary cloud helps show how small the area of what we normally think of as the solar system really is.
Bottom line, people that have not even been a light day away, and who do not even so much as know what time is either, are in no position to teach us about the unknown time in far far space.
Still irrelevant.
As long as the current space-time model is validated and there is no evidence of it being invalid, no reason to involve made-up fantasy (there never is when using science as science deals with facts and fact based concepts), then it rational to use the current space-time model as the best known explanation for the universe. It would be irrational to discard it because it doesn't model fantasy scenarios.
Irrational fantasy cannot be tested, especially when the proponent of the fantasy keeps making up stuff.
However, the current space-time model can be tested and is being tested and to date all data conform to the current space-time model. That is what makes it rational to accept it as the best current explanation of the universe.
Your formulas to measure stars depend on the space and time being equal. ...
Please show me where time enters these equations (D is distance):
(Dstar to ring to us) ~= (Dstar to us + Dstar to ring)
and thus
(Dstar to ring to us - Dstar to us) ~= ((Dstar to us + Dstar to ring) - Dstar to us)
= (Dstar to ring)
This is why we know the distance to SN1984A is not dependent on time being the same at the star. Time only enters the picture when the light reaches us, here on earth, here in the present time, well within the "fishbowl" and thus well within the known and validated space-time portion of the universe.
Voyager 2 getting out there also. Interesting Let's wait and see if the edges of the solar system on that side yield similar results. No use speculating.
No use speculating on space and time being different in the far reaches of the universe.
However, theory is not mere speculation, it is fact-based logical deduction developed to explain the current known facts and then make predictions that can be tested for validity.
Enjoy

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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by creation, posted 10-21-2018 9:12 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 818 by creation, posted 10-21-2018 6:00 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 821 of 948 (841788)
10-21-2018 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 818 by creation
10-21-2018 6:00 PM


Re: Voyager 1 enters new space ... Voyager 2 follows ...
Current space time model in many ways may be validated...on earth, and the solar system.
Indeed, glad you concede that point.
That validation of the current space-time model means we can have confidence that it projects beyond the data/evidence we know to predict what we shall find with further investigation. That further investigation then tests the predictions, and when they validate the model we proceed further. And this process continues until we find an anomaly, something that doesn't fit the predictions of the model.
It is only when test results don't match the model predictions that we need to consider modification or replacement with a new theory. Note that any new theory would have to incorporate all the information of the current space-time model plus the new information.
For instance relativity defaults to the Newton gravity formula in near earth applications and explains the actions previously explained by Newton's gravity formula. It also explains the orbit of Mercury that was an anomaly with Newton's formula.
How shallow.
Depth is irrelevant to the application of the model.
What this all means is that, yes, we only know a little about the universe. That leaves a lot of potential unknowns to discover, and that is an exciting prospect for science.
And it gets really exciting when anomalies appear. Anomalies discovered through application of science, not belief in some other nature.
Enjoy

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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 818 by creation, posted 10-21-2018 6:00 PM creation has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 834 of 948 (841913)
10-23-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Son Goku
10-23-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Confusing
... my point was that it explicitly does not assume it is the same everywhere.
Careful, you're going to confuse him with facts.
Perhaps a touch of how time varies, as in near massive objects. The orbit of Mercury around the Sun as a case in point -- one within his fishbowl bubble ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Son Goku, posted 10-23-2018 12:27 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2018 4:15 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 869 of 948 (842657)
11-04-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 859 by creation
11-02-2018 6:00 PM


Re: Confusing
I accept evolution also, it was a created trait. Things evolved fast in the past. The thing is that they started at the created kinds, no evolving before they existed.
Nope. Unless the created kind is the first single cell prokaryote.
But this is not the thread for this silly assertion, it has nothing to do with Falsifying a Young Universe.
You should be talking about this on the Creation thread that you also participate on.
If anyone claims the creatures and world were not created by God as the bible says, well, they are not bible believers. ...
Whew, I was so worried that I would be classified as a bible believer ... as if that is some special class of people. Guess I'll have to rely on rational thinking unhindered by mythology or cult beliefs ... open minded but skeptical ...
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 6:00 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:34 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 876 of 948 (842863)
11-09-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 871 by creation
11-08-2018 3:34 PM


Re: Confusing
Evolution from some little sweet made up nothing is not the evolution that is supported by science. ACTUAL evolving in the past is bible supported. Nothing says kinds could not evolve and fast fast fast fast fast fast!
Same in the future in the bible lions will change fast to eat grass! The theory of evolution is Satanic baseless fables.
Ignorant opinion unfounded on science reality or real science understanding.
This thread is about SN1987A evidence falsifying a young universe, not evolution. That belongs on another thread, perhaps Scientific Evidence for Evolution, 1882
Meanwhile SN1987A provides solid objective empirical evidence of an old age with a consistent nature in the past, and disproves a young earth.
All you have is an argument from delusion.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:34 PM creation has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 890 of 948 (843743)
11-20-2018 3:53 PM


Can we get a thread topic reboot?
This thread has gone way off topic.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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