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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 600 of 1677 (841560)
10-15-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Aussie
10-15-2018 9:29 AM


Re: loving God
Its never God thats the problem. Its mans interpretation of what God says or means. IMHO anyway. And I try not to be a Calvinist.
This old teacher is more in line with where I am at:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Aussie, posted 10-15-2018 9:29 AM Aussie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 10-15-2018 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 602 of 1677 (841562)
10-15-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
10-15-2018 11:45 AM


Re: loving God
You can keep the credit for yourselves if you choose, but I am not as optimistic about the human potential to autocorrect as you are.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 10-15-2018 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 10-15-2018 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 644 of 1677 (841631)
10-17-2018 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 637 by Faith
10-16-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
This is where you get out of line. It is one thing to accuse unbelievers of being self-righteous and clueless about the character and sovereignty of God. It is quite another when you turn your commentary on those of us who do believe.
You think I don't know as much about beliefs as you do? You think I have not experienced supernatural events? You think I am out of touch with what God thinks and how and why? I could really go off on you right now, but I won't because it is likely what the enemy wants me to do.
If I step back from this forum, and from the individual lives, challenges, and problems of everyone here, and actually look at the big picture I see us all as similar yet different. God as I understand Him may not be understood by me precisely how the *correct* Theologians portray Him as...and yet what gave them the final word? The Holy Spirit, you say? And I suppose that once you gave up studying all of the new age religions and got saved, you and you only knew what was real and what was not real? That is arrogant. The fact of the matter, Faith, is that you are largely an older homebound person who happens to study a lot about Christian History and Christianity and hang your hat on it as your very identity and last stand in life.
You can preach all you want about how if only we saw it as you saw it we would understand it. As if we had to choose that it (The Bible) *must be* 100% true and without error as our initial statement of faith, as you did. You may think and believe that you have to take this stand as it represents the core of your beliefs and identity in this life which you live...waiting to be raptured out of all of this pain, sickness, and heathen nonsense. But you had better back off of attacking and challenging GDR or myself because frankly, you won't win. You have no more claim to correct Theology than either of us....despite your impressive list of Calvinist Theologians. That impresses no one.
Maybe you had better take another break from EvC.
These rants get old.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 8:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 7:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 7:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 649 of 1677 (841637)
10-17-2018 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by Percy
10-15-2018 1:51 PM


Understanding Belief Amongst Reality
Percy writes:
Phat says that if something bad happens then it's our fault or at least we deserved it. If something good happens, God did it.
Is that how I come across? I will fall back on the position that God is somewhat more complex than what we humans can understand, but I would imagine that He wants to commune with us and interact at some level---I am not a Deist. We are a forum of discussion and understanding. I may have gone off a bit harshly on Faith, but hers is not the only voice of reason and truth contained here and I responded publically to her pubic tirade.
Let me clarify my belief for you (and for myself! )
God could be said to be responsible for all that happens in that He is the Creator. And yet can we humans indict Him? Are we not free moral agents capable of saying and doing what we choose? And even if we could indict Him, how on earth (or in heaven) would we sentence Him? All that we can be responsible or sovereign over are our own choices and decisions. If something good happens, we can choose to credit God or fate and chance, though I believe that there really is no such thing---it too being a belief.
And the same goes for if something bad happens. Blaming God may make humans feel less responsible, but we do have a degree of responsibility in every daily decision within our control...such as global warming, for example. Granted we may have a minuscule percentage of responsibility, but blaming God is similar to blaming reality....it goes nowhere.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Percy, posted 10-15-2018 1:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Percy, posted 10-18-2018 6:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 651 of 1677 (841639)
10-17-2018 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
10-17-2018 7:41 AM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
I just get tired of this whole "Faith against the world" thing. If I got a bit personal, it was only because your rant irritated me for some reason. Without you here, we would still have our personal rants against each other...its just that sometimes you get carried away. Nobody here hates you though...that I'm aware. You actually generate much of our forum response. I get mad when you make the claim that you and you alone understand Gods interaction with the planet. Some of the stuff you believe you refuse to give evidence for...apart from claiming that God does not make mistakes. How can anyone hope to understand Christian belief with that sort of all or nothing attitude?
I think you are extremely deficient in DOCTRINE as if you just don't know much.
I know the beliefs...I just question them and am unafraid to do so.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 7:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 8:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 663 of 1677 (841688)
10-19-2018 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by Percy
10-18-2018 6:29 PM


Re: Understanding Belief Amongst Reality
Percy writes:
I think it's a pretty safe bet that whatever happens, good or bad, followed the laws of physics and had nothing to do with God or fate or chance (except at the quantum level).
That's a problem right there. Chance and Evidence are the two points of contention that I have with your take on reality. I have explained before how I do not believe that chance exists except as a definite probability. A finite calculation. A measurable calculation, rather than some whimsical event that occurs totally at random with no measurable quantifier.
As for evidence, scientists keep bringing it up as if it is always available in objectively measurable ways. An absence of evidence does not inevitably lead to evidence of absence unless rational belief is not part of your tool belt. In which case we will never see eye to eye on any of these discussions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Percy, posted 10-18-2018 6:29 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Percy, posted 10-20-2018 4:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 664 of 1677 (841692)
10-19-2018 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by mike the wiz
10-19-2018 6:17 AM


Re: Understanding Belief Amongst Reality
MTW writes:
The only evidence we have for God's character is from scripture. That is all we have available. So we have to see what it says directly or implies. God is omniscient, immutable, omnipotent, omnipresent, sovereign, and He is love. (I did not say "He is all-loving").
So then an infinite mind, with infinite imagination can't even be grasped.
Yet we ourselves can attempt to imagine God so as to be able to argue either for or against His actions. And even the actions themselves are largely taken from scripture. Percy mentions Leprechauns, but Leprechauns by definition are quite easy to define. What we are attempting to define is quite a bit more.
Nowhere does it say that God can't kill for example. That would be absurd to say "it is immoral for the one who created all to destroy it.
God by definition is going to do what He wants to do regardless of whether humans approve or disapprove. Humans usually take some measure of comfort in declaring that God Himself is a made up concept. A valid question to continue such a discussion would be "what if He was not imagined and/or made up?
Jesus said that when the tower fell in his day it was NOT because the people had some special sin worse than other people. (He implied it was random)
I stand by my argument regarding the illogic of true randomness. Everything happens for a reason. Thats my essential belief statement in a nutshell.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by mike the wiz, posted 10-19-2018 6:17 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 665 of 1677 (841693)
10-19-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by Tangle
10-14-2018 6:40 AM


Re: God's Justice
Tangle writes:
Why believe something that makes no sense at all?
Take that thought to its conclusion...
  • Why believe in Someone beyond our capability to fully understand? May as well believe in a rational, easily explainable God that we can define and fully characterize. Which of course is why Jesus is more popular as a way to God...He is human and better understood than omnipotent universe creating Ghosts.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 597 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2018 6:40 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 667 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2018 11:22 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 668 of 1677 (841700)
    10-19-2018 1:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 667 by Tangle
    10-19-2018 11:22 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Tangle writes:
    Might as well believe in anything at all. Which is what people the world over do. Dumb though it is.
    Are you implying that people need to outgrow the primitive need for belief? To be honest, if I outgrew my need to believe I fear that I would have no hope left. Even Western people with money believe in something, even if that something is the very banking and financial system itself. Take all of that support away from them and they too would be hard pressed to find hope in logic, reason, and reality.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 667 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2018 11:22 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 669 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2018 2:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 670 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2018 4:47 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 671 of 1677 (841708)
    10-20-2018 5:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 670 by Straggler
    10-20-2018 4:47 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    Straggler writes:
    I would argue there is a whole spectrum of justification for beliefs ranging from hard science at one end to Faith style evidence denying rapture predicting nonsense at the other. A belief in a political ideology will, for most people, be based on a combination of real life and very material personal experience and upbringing + their education and knowledge of history and the wider world. That’s a woollier basis than hard science but considerably more concrete than notions of personally experiencing godly entities, the sort of experience I have seen you cite as justifying religious belief.
    That's largely because you have never had any subjective experiences....real or delusional.
    Granted I can admit that my experiences may have been perceived incorrectly...but they nevertheless happened. I had enough of them to validate my confirmed biases.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 670 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2018 4:47 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 672 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2018 7:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 674 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 11:41 AM Phat has replied
     Message 675 by GDR, posted 10-20-2018 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 676 of 1677 (841719)
    10-20-2018 2:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 674 by ringo
    10-20-2018 11:41 AM


    Re: God's Justice
    And yet everyone does this all the time. You cant have a scientist around trailing you with a Geiger counter everytime you pick up a rock.
    When you drive down an unfamiliar road, you make choices on where to turn.
    In some cases you are wrong. There are maps available, but not all of them are descriptive of the territory ahead...but as we live and walk through the territory, we choose which maps to use in the future. You chose a different map than I (and other believers ) chose...but it is, in the end, YOUR map...it need not be everyone's map. I have seen many maps describing the Bible...some dismiss it and others corroborate parts of it....but it is my decision which mapmakers to listen to. I indeed do validate my own perceptions and live with the decisions.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 674 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 677 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2018 2:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 678 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:10 PM Phat has replied
     Message 687 by Percy, posted 10-20-2018 4:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 679 of 1677 (841725)
    10-20-2018 3:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 678 by ringo
    10-20-2018 3:10 PM


    Re: God's Justice
    Do you ignore outside information on every topic and go only with your own "subjective experience"?
    Yes and No. Let's take Low Carb Diets as an analogy. There is a growing group of Doctors who have some pretty impressive and verifiable data regarding the wisdom of the low carb approach to treating diabetes. There is also another group of Doctors who challenge this data and rely on the more traditional wisdom. As a diabetic, all that I have to go on is my numbers...my blood sugar A1C, my HR, and my blood pressure, as well as my subjective feelings of health and well-being. I'm not simply going to take some drug that has passed clinical trials. I am going to make my own decision.
    It is the same with the Bible. Some, such as Richard carrier, have brought forth cases that show Jesus to be a myth and the motivations for writing the Bible to be political and partisan motivated. Others disagree. Both sides have data. In the end, it is our free choice what to believe. I chose Low Carb. I will defend that choice against any argument. Do I have a bias? Yes, in the sense that I try and avoid excessive medications....but also realizing that my choice involves a degree of personal responsibility and discipline.
    My point is that at this point in time, no one side can claim the final say in verifiable data nor in the results of subjective experiences.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 678 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:10 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 680 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:37 PM Phat has replied
     Message 688 by Percy, posted 10-20-2018 5:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 681 of 1677 (841728)
    10-20-2018 3:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 680 by ringo
    10-20-2018 3:37 PM


    Re: God's Justice
    Granted I was assuming.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 680 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:37 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 682 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:46 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 683 of 1677 (841731)
    10-20-2018 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 682 by ringo
    10-20-2018 3:46 PM


    Re: God's Justice
    I suppose that a lot has to do with what I want to accept in the first place. Also the fact that I don't agree with some of the others, so why would I want to consider that they might have a point?
    Which I suppose proves the point that we all create the God that we want. Even if a real and actual One happens to exist apart from our whimsy.
    And you decided to simply skip a step and not create any sort of God....given that you believe that we all have to do it for ourselves anyway. Which I suppose makes sense. I will hold out for a guiding fatherly Being, however. I hate being alone.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 682 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:46 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 685 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 686 of 1677 (841736)
    10-20-2018 4:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 684 by Percy
    10-20-2018 4:15 PM


    Re: Understanding Belief Amongst Reality
    I liked the way you expressed it earlier ("If something good happens, we can choose to credit God or fate and chance, though I believe that there really is no such thing---it too being a belief."), which is why I said I agree. Now you've reexpressed this in a way I'm not sure I can agree with because it's unclear what you mean. It's possible you've said nothing meaningful.
    All that I mean is that chance has to be measurable...such as lottery probabilities...rather than arbitrary...such as "the universe occurred by chance"...which is not measurable nor quantifiable.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 684 by Percy, posted 10-20-2018 4:15 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 689 by Percy, posted 10-20-2018 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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