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Author | Topic: Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
NN writes:
Indeed. My boneheaded insistence on taking long-acting insulin to preserve my pancreas...initiated 10 years ago, and propitiated by latter Doctors who never bothered to research nor question the need--was indeed my fault. It was also they who did not research my need for insulin when they took me on as a patient---they simply asked if I was taking it and adjusted the dose upwards as my blood sugars refused to move below 7%. Granted I was not trying to manage or control my diet--for many years---for many reasons which I dont really want to discuss at length except with a counselor...but yes you have a point. My results have been mixed.
You seem to approach medicine the same way you approach many other subjects and your success so far seems mixed.NN writes: The Trulicity was eagerly prescribed by my pharmaceutical-loving endocrinologist and were it not for my trusty union insurance would cost $1000.00 a month!! It ended up still costing $75.00 and I got rid of it a month ago with great results! Has anyone attempted to prescribe drugs costing anything like there amounts (500-700 dollars per month) to you? Is that really what the debate is about? I understand the concern about the profit motive of the pharmaceutical industry, but metformin, based on what I see on the internet, costs about 20 dollars a month, with generic versions being about 10 dollars a month. Are you really being given the kind of advice that is the subject of this article? Are you having low blood sugar episodes? My point in all of this is to show that it is not having a great doctor--if they dont bother understanding the dietary approaches that Fung and others do understand while also being all too eager to prescribe drugs. In the end, it was my taking charge of the treatment and even going against what I saw as bad medical supervision which has led to my current 6.3% 3-month reading and the best control--without the drugs, mind you---that I have had in over ten years. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
NN writes: I have found adequate evidence that the low carb approach is the soundest diet for Type II Diabetes. It is most certainly not a fad nor quack science. The jury is still out on the intermittent fasting, which is a fad among dieters as well as diabetics....and even though Dr.Fung advocates it I am being more cautious in that approach. What do you find encouraging in those articles? Currently, I see some small fasts--a couple of days of water only--as non-harmful. My blood sugars never go too low since I got rid of the drugs that would push them too low. Type II Diabetes is a metabolic disease that is properly treated through diet and exercise and, yes, metformin and Lisinopril. No other drugs are needed. I blame the Doctors that I had for being too dense to see this obvious truth nor to have tested me to verify. I blame myself as well, however. I can be a stubborn one. My overall long-range goal is to reduce my weight to healthy levels, get rid of adipose internal fat around my organs, maintain an eventual balanced diet...the purpose of extreme low carb is to drop the weight which cannot be done through traditional ADA dieting.(nor with medications such as insulin) Add by Edit: One bone of contention that I have with many of the educated types here at EvC is that you respect educated doctors to the point of obedience, assuming that they know more than you do.My entire rant is to assert that they often do not...either willfully or ignorantly. They were the ones who stood by and approved of the medications which kept my weight on, did not lower my blood glucose, and in fact, increased the very insulin resistance that was causing the problems. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
those two specific articles do not have that content.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
That was a good talk! I think I understand where he is coming from.
From The transcript Also I noted this:09:52 How can we explain this strange phenomenon? Well, it turns out that what happens is the negative data goes missing in action; it's withheld from doctors and patients. And this is the most important aspect of the whole story. It's at the top of the pyramid of evidence. We need to have all of the data on a particular treatment to know whether or not it really is effective. I did a little digging through some of the data mentioned in my links from Stanford. What I found was not exactly what I hoped to find, but I noted it nonetheless. A certain professor, Christopher Gardner did a study on low fat vs low carb diets.
Low Fat or Low Carb? Its A Draw, Study Finds They did note that low carb seems to work better for insulin resistant patients, but the results are not conclusive at this time. Admittedly I would never have found this strictly from studying Dr.Jason Fungs sources, since though his credentials are sound and not of mail order variety, his research is never fully revealed---only the favorable results are talked about.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Associations of fats and carbohydrate intake with cardiovascular disease and mortality in 18 countries from five continents (PURE): a prospective cohort study
Notable:
quote: From what I've read so far, higher fats do not contribute to higher risk unless accompanied by higher carbohydrates.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
My latest effort is scientifically based and follows this bit of wisdom. (start at 28:10)
You can't do it in a month Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
oh and I suppose that you get it right the first time! Yes I know...its a lifestyle change...yada yada yada...but one has to begin somewhere.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: I still believe that lowering the carbs and thus reducing the insulin will make me healthier in the long run. Science backs me on this one. Virtually every major disease has hyperinsulinemia as its root cause. Too much insulin is a bad thing for me. (for anyone, really) Yes, it begins with a realization that if you want to lose weight permanently you need to eat (and drink) less, take more exercise and eat a sensible balanced diet. ...And do it over time without obsessing about it. I prefer the term studying about it rather than obsessing. The subject interests me and I have studied it in depth...even asking my Doctors questions and getting more information. At the beginning of the summer, my A1C was 7.3%. Last visit in September it had risen to 9.1% which was not good. This battle isn't easy. I slipped up on the low carb plan during the summer, however. It will still be my main focus.
You're looking for magical solutions that don't work and that you change every few months. I am not changing anything. I still have the same diet. And yes, you are right...I need balance and moderation. These things I know. Ask anyone who struggles with weight and blood sugar control and they will also tell you it isn't easy. But I'm doing it! In mid-Sept I weighed 232. (9.1 A1C) As of today, Oct 15th, I have lost 12 pounds and the swelling in my legs has vanished. My A1C is on the way back..I will have it taken again next visit. You'll just get fatter while you sit on your arse googling for the next fad diet to make you feel as though you're doing something. Why must you be so critical? See how you sound?
The yada, yada, yada bit is the important bit. Results occur with time. There is no quick solution nor is there a magic one. We can agree on this much. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith writes: I think I can somewhat understand and empathize with your situation. Pain and chronic inflammation are no fun. I had a successful run from mid-March to June, then I fell off of it and became distracted with other problems in life. My legs again swelled up and I ate too many carbohydrates which spiked my blood sugar once again. Sometimes we learn the hard way, I guess. It took three hard weeks to retrain my body to burn fat first and sugar sparingly...which I can document as being the healthiest diet for diabetics. I am just getting started on what hopefully will be a lifestyle change rather than simply a fad, as Tangle asserts. Just for the record, I've completely given up on doing anything about my bad eating habits, trying to lose weight or anything. Of course, you are a lot younger than I am so maybe you can still muster some motivation. I can't anymore. What he fails to understand is the mental and emotional battle. If it were as easy as he suggests, everyone would be healthy. IIRC you once championed a plant-based diet. Add a few good oils and cut the other carbs back (potatoes, rice, etc.) and you will be doing well for your inflammatory arthritis and aches and pains. Limit meat to organic, eat wisely and dont get depressed about it all. Patience is a virtue. Some days can be hell, though. I could see wanting to get raptured out of all of this! Be encouraged, Faith. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I realize it's normal to cheer effort and all that stuff but if you're not interested in impartial opinion, it's best not to publish your life on an internationally public forum. That makes sense. Ive done my research on these low carb diets though....for diabetics they are really the best way.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith writes: How old are you? 67 or so? Don't tell me that you are giving up for the rest of your natural life and waiting for some Rapture. God may tarry for another length of time....and Ringo has a point that we do have to do it for ourselves...God or no God. Which does not mean that we cease believing and trusting...it only means we can't give up while we are alive. Can't do it any more.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I pray for the best for you. God has given me the strength and wisdom to continue this lifestyle change that I am on for two months now. I dropped from 232 to 220, and my goal is 200 pounds byu the end of the year. The extra weight was hurting my health and my A1C was at 9.1% in September but I'm estimating it is already around 7% now and will get better with continued time. I am eating real food--healthy and in moderation. My faith is strong yet unsettled...I guess I have always expected more out of life than what I am getting. My feet are sore nearly every day as I have neuropathy and the diet is causing my fat pads to diminish so I feel pain with every step. My eyes have symptoms of retinopathy and so far my kidneys are ok, but logic suggests that they too have been damaged.
Yes its all been my fault...I won't blame any devil for this predicament, but I really wish I could have got it together when I was 30 and not now at 59. I feel as if I have been cheated in life, even though most of it I did to myself. My mantra these days is to "let the science work"...and it is helping my body to change. God has given me wisdom, though I am afraid that I also have the wisdom to question everything that I had been taught to believe. I seriously doubt I would ever become an atheist, and I believe as you do 100% that Jesus is alive and in communion with me and that He did choose me for a reason---though I never want to become an old cripple telling folks how good he is...because I would be quite angry that I was not given the strength to change years earlier and I do take some of the counter-arguments seriously...which is causing some cognitive dissonance at this point in time. Of course, I don't believe that God was a creation of humans. I can never imagine letting go that much....because if God did not exist, reality itself is a cruel, uncaring, and harsh mistress...and gives no hope to anyone. Anyway I hope that you stay healthy and able to communicate with the outside world...even though you sometimes get a bit stubborn, you are who you are and only God or Faith herself can change it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Perhaps it is your perception that needs adjusting, instead of patching up an uncomfortable view of reality with a god mythology. Perhaps. When it comes to my health, I dont think about God much...I realize that I am the one responsible for my health and progress. So I weighed in at 217 this week. More exactly, my weight is on a spectrum between 217 and 211...I always use the highest number for my chart. I went and had a Dexa Scan. My Numbers look better than they would have looked a month ago when I weighed 232, but they are on the high end.
Total Mass: 213.0 lbs.....Lean Mass: 146.5 lbs.......Tissue %Lean: 68.8%.....Fat Mass: 58.5 lbs.....Tissue %Fat 28.5% So I am continuing this diet until I reach 18% body fat at the most...then continuing to eat basic low carb for the rest of my life, adding only healthy low glycemic vegetables back in to the mix in increasing amounts as I reach my goals...the real number that has to improve is my insulin resistance.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
More developments, and my current belief and opinion:
For many years, I was on insulin. This was by choice, as I reasoned back then that without supplemental insulin, my pancreas would eventually burn out. My doctor at that time simply went along with my theory---obviously, neither one of us understood the science behind all of it. Now here it is nearly 2019. I was informed last week that I will need a Vitrectomy. My eyes have been affected by proliferative retinopathy, and the eye surgeon told me that without this I will eventually become blind in one eye. I have always been stubborn in regards to my deciding how to manage my health, and it may yet be the death of me...but that is my character. I will say, however, that I study up on this stuff more than I used to do. Stay tuned as I enter 2019 and attempt to juggle my faith, spiritual belief, and passion for life while accepting fully the science behind the reality of my health.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This week I am undergoing a 3 day medically supervised fast. Water only. I started at noon on Monday, and will plan on ending it at my Doctor appointment at noon on Thursday. You may be interested in the medical benefits of fasting on inflammatory diseases such as the one that you struggle with.
I am off of work for two of the three days, and have been advised to get blood work done and to followup with my Doctor on Thursday. The fast will be broken with bone broth and specific foods in a limited intake. I can hear Tangle bemoaning the soundness of such an approach, but have researched this practice enough to have asked my Doctor about whether it would help my diabetes. He gave me the green light provided that I don't work, get adequate rest, and follow up with an appointment. I have just passed the 20 hour mark of a planned 72 hour fast. Stay tuned. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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