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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Just had to give this from your quote some special space of its own. Engels yet.
Frederick Engels saw this clearly, "If some few passages of the Bible may be favorable to communism, the general spirit of its doctrines is, nevertheless, totally opposed to it." Yes indeed. Truth from the mouth of a Communist. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As far as I understood it the reason we get baptized is to clense us from the original sin... I get that That's close but the main thing about baptism is that it officially includes believers in the Body of Christ. In a sense it is an outward representation of the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" which Christ gives us.
Jesus was sent by God to suffer a bloody death in order to save humanity from its sins. Thats generally how it goes and what I struggled to accept. Why did God make Jesus go through such an terrible death? How exactly does that save us from sin? It is crucial to understand this. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE, as the sacrificial lamb to pay for OUR SINS. WE deserve that death plus an eternity of suffering but He took it all on Himself so that we don't have to suffer it. The terrible death shows how terrible our sins are that He paid for in our place. It saves us from sin because He paid it all for us.
Why do we then still have to confess or even lead a moral life if Jesus saved us already? Or why lead a moral life is a simple confession absolves my sins? It's clear your context is Roman Catholic from the mention of confession but of course Protestants also must confess our sins, only not to a priest, but to God Himself and to each other where appropriate. The reason for continually being cleansed from our sins by repentance and obedience to God's moral law is that this is what we are saved FOR. The whole story is that the human race became sinners and enemies of God when Adam and Eve disobeyed His command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was the Fall at which our spiritual capacity for communication with God was lost. But from that point on God promised that He would send us a Savior from our fallen condition, the Messiah or Anointed One, who finally came, and that is Jesus Christ. His death pays for our sins, removes the curse of the Fall, reinstates our spiritual capacity and even more than that unites us to Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit. And inaugurates a brand new Creation in which we will eventually be "Sons of God" and without any more tendency to sin.
What of all the people that died before Jesus? Or the people born in other cultures? Did they just automatically go to hell? The entire human race is destined for Hell by nature because of our fallen condition. Some who nevertheless obey God's Law intuitively are probably saved but all we know for sure is that those who believe in the sacrifice of Christ to pay for our sins are saved, and that includes millions of people from all cultures because of missionaries who have taken the gospel to them. Old Testament Jews were saved, however, by believing what light they had through God's revelation in their time.
That's one of the reasons why, even though I was raised a catholic, don't take the bible literally anymore. So many things in it just don't make sense. There are some things in it that will probably never make sense to any of us until Jesus returns, but that's the reason for living by faith. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
...no reason to think that some sort of elusive God given higher purpose even exists. Not even the fact that millions of others have thought so and many even written extensively about it. Not even a little bit of a reason? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sin is hard to define. Scripture defines it as violating God's Law.
It seems that some things are sinful for some but not for others. That just means that some have more sensitive consciences than others do, not that there is any objective difference in what sin actually is.
We generally seem to think that sin is about what we do or don't do. I suggest that when we see it that way we are only looking at the symptoms of sin and not the actual sin itself. I think that the actual sin is what is in our hearts. Jesus said that sin is basically in the heart, but sinful deeds are clearly sinful. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fact that lots of people believe something doesn’t make it true. Lots of people have believed lots of very silly things. Lots of people don't just believe lots of silly things these days. That idea in itself is a silly thing people believe though. It's really a stupidly ignorant belief that is held by more and more people all because of some stupidly ignorant propaganda. The history of Christianity shows a very high level of intellectual and social thought that makes today's political and social thought look idiotic. The fact that there are historically such great minds and souls in support of Christ really ought to dissuade you from dismissing them as just a bunch of silly people and take seriously that they have something important to say to you.
There is a question to answer about why so many people believe such things. There is no such question from the point of view of those who do hold these beliefs, or who appreciate what Christianity has done for the world, it's only in the mind of people who have no clue to any of it.
And if we examine that question using the most reliable investigative techniques available to us there are answers to be found. Unfortunately such techniques are utterly incompetent to answer the questions you are asking.
But the answers so far achieved point to psychology, culture, history and other such very human factors. There is nothing to suggest actual god-given purpose beyond the popularity of the idea that there is one (with no real agreement on what that purpose would actually be, even amongst believers). Which is the only kind of answer your techniques could give you and it is ridiculously inadequate to the task, as if you asked a fish to judge an elephant.
So the difference between me and Phat is not that I am a robotic automaton who cannot experience love unless my Geiger counter tells me to. It’s that I am happy to claim love, find purpose and subjective m I don't agree with Phat about much and I would never call an unbeliever an automaton (though I doubt Phat did either), and of course unbelievers experience all the things you mention and think they are happy with that too. I don't question any of that. I also know unbelievers have a conscience and a moral sense because those are God-given faculties. We're all made in the image of God. But salvation and knowledge of God are something else, something we lost at the Fall that can only be reclaimed by believing in Christ. You are a very high and noble creature with an immortal soul and you can't find that out with your investigative techniques.
Psa 8:4-6 writes: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands... But fallen man has become like a beast and thinks he is a beast. Toss him such pearls and he tramples them underfoot
Psalm 49:20 writes: Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Except that Ilsam is patently evil and idiotic. That's the difference.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
talking about all who seek/claim divine purpose. Not necessarily just Christians. You were answering me and I was only talking about Christianity.
2) That not questioning bit is where you are going wrong. I'm not going wrong at all, you are. Believers know the answer so have no reason to question.
What techniques or methods of discovery do you suggest instead? There aren't any. Believing is what Jesus tells us to do. If you want a technique of investigation instead, forget it, there aren't any.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
By their doctrines.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I agree with you that the culture of the times is important for understanding what Jesus meant, or any other part of the Bible for that matter, but I disagree strenuously that
Much of what Jesus was talking about was very political No. Jesus said nothing political. Zip.
That is the trouble with a lot of Christianity theology today. It is taking texts written in a very different time and in a very different culture and trying to force them into a 21st century world. Square pegs and round holes. That is complete poppycock. Standard evangelical preaching, as well as Reformed preaching which is more my part of the Church, is generally very well grounded in the culture and historical context of the time of Christ, and in in fact all the different time periods covered in the Bible throughout the Old Testament as well, and nobody tries to force anything on them. That information is used to bring out the meaning of the texts. I don't know where you get such silly ideas about traditional Christianity. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Huh?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Translation of "huh" = I can't answer you if you aren't specific about what Jesus said and why you think it means what you said.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK, how about by their suicide bombings and their other jihad killings? But the point is it follows from their doctrines.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You've said absolutely nothing GDR to indicate what YOU think the paragraph means. You have to make your case, I can't read your mind.
But I'm beyond caring at this point after this kind of foolery from you. Specific stuff about the temple is specific stuff about the temple and it was far more about the fact that it ended the sacrificial system forever because Jesus our Sacrifice had come, than it was a political event. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't "treat" homosexuals any differently than I treat anyone else.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes it is.
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