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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 827 of 1498 (841138)
10-08-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by Faith
10-08-2018 11:50 AM


Re: And now some questions on past times
The Egyptians didn't have a flood-everything story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 918 of 1498 (842148)
10-27-2018 11:45 AM


There are very good reasons to believe that radioactive decay has been the same since at least a short time after the Big Bang. Radioactive decay is governed by some of the most fundamental laws of the Universe. Any change would have wide-ranging consequences, many unexpected (unless you understand the physics).
See these articles by physicist Steve Carlip, excellent summaries with references.
The Constancy of Constants
The Constancy of Constants, Part 2
And see
Have physical constants changed with time?
None of the phenomena associated with any change in radioactivity have been observed.

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 920 of 1498 (842154)
10-27-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by creation
10-27-2018 1:41 PM


Are there any reasons to believe that the radioactive decay we experience here in the solar system area reflects what goes on far away?
Yes. E.g. the oft-previously-mentioned characteristic light signatures and decay rates of radioactive elements in SN1987A. Please make some effort to keep up.
Plus, as I said, radioactive decay is mediated by some of the most fundamental forces in the Universe. See previous links, especially the second
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 946 of 1498 (842381)
10-30-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 942 by creation
10-30-2018 12:40 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
I am one asking for evidence.
And ignoring it when it's presented.
Unless it is forthcoming we will have to admit that there is no proof for the basis of modeling the past used by science.
Message 918 .
It hath forthcame.

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 Message 942 by creation, posted 10-30-2018 12:40 PM creation has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 983 of 1498 (842631)
11-04-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 982 by creation
11-04-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
Still ignoring the evidence we've posted. Sad.
BTW nobody's claiming ancient records are false in every way. Some of them are partly or completely true.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1088 of 1498 (843345)
11-16-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1080 by creation
11-15-2018 7:21 PM


Re: Many floods, but no World Wide Flood
Do you have a point?

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1271 of 1498 (857889)
07-12-2019 5:21 PM


Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
ANCIENT TREE WITH RECORD OF EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD REVERSAL IN ITS RINGS DISCOVERED
quote:
An ancient tree that contains a record of a reversal of Earth's magnetic field has been discovered in New Zealand. The tree”an Agathis australis, better known as its Mori name kauri”was found in Ngawha, on New Zealand's North Island, during excavation work for the expansion of a geothermal power plant, stuff.nz reports.
The tree, which had been buried in 26 feet of soil, measures eight feet in diameter and 65 feet in length. Carbon dating revealed it lived for 1,500 years, between 41,000 and 42,500 years ago.
"There's nothing like this anywhere in the world," Alan Hogg, from New Zealand's University of Waikato, told the website. "This Ngwh kauri is unique."
The lifespan of the kauri tree covers a point in Earth's history when the magnetic field almost reversed. At this time, the magnetic north and south went on an excursion but did not quite complete a full reversal.
I haven't been able to find a paper.
Select Publications by Professor Chris Turney | UNSW Research
Research Publications for Alan G Hogg: University of Waikato
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1273 of 1498 (873175)
03-10-2020 7:49 PM


This may be interesting. Just another correlation between independent methods.
Just a moment...
[quote]This study presents subdaily resolved chemical records through fossil mollusk shell calcite. Trace element profiles resolve periodic variability across ~40mthin daily growth laminae in a Campanian Torreites sanchezi rudist bivalve. These highresolution records are combined with seasonally resolved stable isotope and trace element records that allow shellchemical variability to be discussed on both seasonal and daily scale. A combination of layer counting, spectral analysis of chemical cyclicity and chemical layer counting shows that the rudist precipitated 372 daily laminae per year, demonstrating that length of day has increased since the Late Cretaceous, as predicted by astronomical models. This new approach to determine the length of a solar day in geologic history through multiproxy chemical records at subdaily resolution yields considerably more control on the uncertainty of this estimate. Daily chemical variability exceeds seasonal variability in our records, and cannot be explained by diurnal temperature changes. Instead, we postulate that rudist shell chemistry is driven on a daily scale by changes in light intensity. These results together with those of stable isotope analyses provide strong evidence that Torreites rudists had photosymbionts. Bivalve shell calcite generally preserves well. Therefore, this study paves the way for dailyscale reconstructions of paleoenvironment and sunlight intensity on geologic time scales from bivalve shells, potentially allowing researchers to bridge the gap between climate and weather reconstructions. Such reconstructions improve shell chronologies, document environmental change in warm ecosystems, and widen our understanding of the magnitude of shortterm changes during greenhouse climates.[ /quote]
{emphasis added}

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1277 of 1498 (876831)
05-29-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by dad
05-29-2020 2:33 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Bare assertions are not evidence or reasoned argumentation,and will be ignored.

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 Message 1275 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:33 AM dad has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1278 of 1498 (876832)
05-29-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1276 by dad
05-29-2020 2:35 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
And if invisible space walruses created the universe and the appearance of history last Thursday, all bets are off.
Please restrict yourself to claims for which there is evidence and present that evidence, as required by the forum guidelines you agreed to when you signed up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:35 AM dad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:32 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1283 of 1498 (876850)
05-29-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by dad
05-29-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
I will if you do
No problem. I always restrict. myself to claims for which there is evidence and present that evidence.
But you obviously won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:32 AM dad has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1288 of 1498 (876867)
05-29-2020 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by dad
05-29-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
The positive science claim is that nature was the same and so that therefore tree rings represent the same length of time taken for trees to grow now.
Missing or extra rings are prevalent in some species, occasional in most species, and very rare in some species. Examples of the latter are bristlecone pines, Douglas fir, and oak. Dendrochronologists use only samples from such trees.
But the easiest way to demonstrate is a concept no YEC has ever even tried to address; consilience, or the agreement between several independent data sets.From Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals (click the images to make them larger):
(Speleothems are stalactites and stalagmites. Suigetsu and Cariaco are annually-laid varves on a lake or sea floor. Lisan is uranium-thorium disequilibrium dating of carbonates in a dead sea. New Guinea is uranium-thorium disequilibrium dating of coral. PS 2644 is annual layers in an ice core combined with carbon-14 dating of foraminifera in a deep-sea -bottom core.)
From the same reference, here's a plot covering less time, on which it's esier to se the agreement between tree rings and other methods:
The horizontal axis is years before present as measured by the methods listed in the box. The vertical axis is years before present as measured on the same sample by carbon-14 dating. If all the methods agreed exactly, the data points would lie exactly on the 1:1 line shown. The fact that they don't is useful but the subject for another topic.
But the data points do obviously cluster along a curve slightly below and to the right of the 1:1 line. This clustering is often called "the curves agree".
I tree rings were significantly different in the past, they wouldn't cluster with the other methods. Unless all those other methods are off by the same amount as the tree rings. That would require some major f**king with the fundamental constants of the Universe carefully tuned and coordinated to make all the independent methods off by the same amount, and life as we know it probably couldn't exist in such a Universe.
What's your explanation for the consilience?
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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 Message 1284 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:55 PM dad has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1290 of 1498 (876876)
05-29-2020 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by dad
05-29-2020 7:10 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
science claims must be supported in ways other than beliefs.
Yes, and they are.
Since this forum is a science forum, you are subject to the same constraint. If you don't want to be, you are welcome to post in one of the faith forums.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1292 of 1498 (876882)
05-29-2020 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by dad
05-29-2020 7:14 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
I do not need any missing rings.
Cute. You skipped right over extra rings. You do need huge heaps of them. For which you haven't provided any evidence or physically possible mechanism.
But like all YECs, you are ducking the important question, about which I was so specific.
You neglected to explain why all those independent methods agree. Snowfall layers, radioactive decay rates of uranium, thorium, and carbon-14 by different mechanisms, tree rings, ice layers, speleothem growth, and varves; all involving different and independent processes, and all would have to be sped up in perfect lock step.
Consilience. The fact that terrifies YECs.
If a tree grew for example in a few weeks and had 500 rings, we could not count the ring patterns for yearly cycles
Unless you have evidence for that actually happening, we'll ignore such unfounded speculation.
They actually had to use to tree rings to calibrate and correct the carbon dating because it was WRONG!
No measurement of any quantity is 100% exact. The curve I posted demonstrates that without any adjustment carbon dating is correct within 10% or less, many many orders of magnitude too small to help you.
As I pointed out, scientists use several different and independent measurements, all of which agree closely enough to falsify your age claims, to increase the accuracy of carbon dating.
The curves agree. If you can't explain why you got nuthin'.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1294 of 1498 (876894)
05-30-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1293 by dad
05-30-2020 2:22 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
Unless you have evidence for a same nature in the past we will ignore slow growth claimss.
I have provided that evidence and explained it in detail. I could explain in more detail, but you obviously wouldn't have any substantive response. You said you would always provide evidence for your claims. We knew that was false when you wrote it, and we have seen that we were right. You're just making up BS as you go along. You are far too ignorant to have any useful or interesting discussion with you.
Bye-bye

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