Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
You need an excuse why you are losing all of your stuff.
That's just silly.
Phat writes:
But you cant project your plain reading of the Bible into a sermon for all of us...
I sure can. It says what it says, whether you choose to reject it or not.
Phat writes:
... and argue against an entire church that its the gospel...
As I've told Faith, an appeal to popularity and/or authority is not a valid argument. The Bible says what it says, whether an entire church chooses to reject it or not. And rejecting it is self-serving, which makes their conclusion doubly suspect.
Phat writes:
...just because you lean socialist anyway.
My socialist leaning has no influence on what the Bible says. It says what it says.
Phat writes:
You will end up falling in the ditch with the very sheep you are trying to help and expecting someone else to give you the spare change.
Yes, that's exactly the way it's supposed to be. That's what Jesus taught: Contribute what you can and you'll get what you need.
In the Old Testament, Elijah expected the widow to contribute her last morsel of food - and she didn't starve in the gutter because of it. Even Noah had to contribute all he could.
In the New Testament, Jesus told the young ruler to sell what he had and give to the poor. Jesus Himself and his disciples followed the same rule. The early church followed the same rule. Jesus commended the widow for giving her last two mites.
It's a theme: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
You probably won't care--but this news team did a good job at investigative reporting.
I work hard for my money, and I dont give it away carelessly.
We probably won't ever agree on this debate, so I think we are done.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
They were punished for lying about it.
These stories are made up anyway, but could you quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie?
They were in the wrong for keeping back part of the money too because everyone else was giving all of theirs but as Peter says in Acts 5:4 they had the right to the land and the money and had no need to lie about their choice to keep back part, they lied to make themselves look good.
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
So if God commanded you to would you kill those who have committed a terrible sin against God’s people and who deserve punishment would you do it?
You mean if I thought I heard God say that to me or something like that? I would not obey it because I would know it wasn't God talking. Such a message is totally inconsistent with the New Testament, which i've already said.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Peter was very clear that they had the right to the land and its money so they had every right to do with it whatever they wanted to do and that being the case they could not be punished for that. You do have to read in context.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:
They were in the wrong for keeping back part of the money too because everyone else was giving all of theirs but as Peter says in Acts 5:4 they had the right to the land and the money and had no need to lie about their choice to keep back part, they lied to make themselves look good.
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,...etc...
I had already read the beginning of Act 5, and the end of Act 4 as well, when I asked you to quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie. You still haven't done it, since Ananias never said a word before he "gave up the ghost." Only Sapphira lied.
I'm in effect making the same point as Ringo - people see what they want in the Bible, whether it is there or not.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
quote:
Peter was very clear that they had the right to the land and its money so they had every right to do with it whatever they wanted to do and that being the case they could not be punished for that. You do have to read in context.
No. It IS important to read it in context. - but it seems you still refuse to do that.
In the actual text Peter makes it clear that it was WRONG of them to hold back part of the money and that they had no excuse for ho,ding back part of them money. And why should they not be punished for doing wrong ?
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
I am delighted to hear it. I think it’s a good thing you would ignore such commands.
But what if those biblical folk who were commanded to kill the Amalekites had drawn the same conclusion and ignored God’s command? Would they have been justified in their refusal?
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:
You do have to read in context.
And you're not. The context is clear that they were punished for lying AND holding back. The phrase added by AND is an important part of the context that you're ignoring.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
The context is clear that they were punished for lying AND holding back. The phrase added by AND is an important part of the context that you're ignoring.
It is clear from the fact that they had a right to their land to dispose of it however they wished that they couldn't be punished for holding back part of it, that makes no sense at all. They were in the wrong because everybody else was giving all their possessions but that isn't a punishable wrong, especially not punishable by the death penalty.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
I am delighted to hear it. I think it’s a good thing you would ignore such commands.
It makes me SO sad that you wouldn't already have known that and even go on to the next question, that people these days know so little about their Christian heritage. Nothing really.
But what if those biblical folk who were commanded to kill the Amalekites had drawn the same conclusion and ignored God’s command? Would they have been justified in their refusal?
I'd have to study it all more closely but I believe they got their commands from their military leaders, who got them from Moses or Joshua if they were commands from God. I don't think you disobey military commands with impunity. They might have been killed for desertion or something like that. Nevertheless there were many times when the Israelites disobeyed the general command to wipe out all the idolatrous nations and they suffered for it because those nations seduced them into idolatry for which they were eventually punished themselves.
In any case no single Israelite could have drawn the same conclusion I would draw since mine is drawn on the fact that I'm in the New Testament dispensation and know that God wants me to suffer rather than harm anyone else. They were commanded to destroy their enemies. Whole different frame of reference.
™ Version 4.2
