Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8872 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-17-2018 11:01 PM
216 online now:
AZPaul3, Faith, Tanypteryx, xongsmith (4 members, 212 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Son of Man
Post Volume:
Total: 842,189 Year: 17,012/29,783 Month: 1,000/1,956 Week: 503/331 Day: 86/76 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
36373839
40
41Next
Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1919
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 587 of 613 (842716)
11-06-2018 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by ICANT
11-05-2018 10:35 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. That is a good thing about America.

Those people who died in Florida and Las Vegas and Pittsburgh aren't really able to have an opinion to offer. They don't even live in America anymore. Wonder if that's a good thing (for them).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 10:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 9:57 AM Pressie has responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 949
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 588 of 613 (842717)
11-06-2018 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Tangle
11-05-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I think I'm going to have to leave this forum, I'm having great difficulty coping with the degree of irrationality and sheer stupidity you guys spout whilst just knowing that you're right.

WELL SAID, WELL SAID!!!!!!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2018 1:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 589 of 613 (842720)
11-06-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Tangle
11-05-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Maybe you need to listen to your favorite poem! There is still hope, Tangle.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2018 1:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2018 11:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 590 of 613 (842721)
11-06-2018 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by Pressie
11-06-2018 4:11 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Pressie

Pressie writes:

Those people who died in Florida and Las Vegas and Pittsburgh aren't really able to have an opinion to offer. They don't even live in America anymore. Wonder if that's a good thing (for them).

quote:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Everybody believes the first part of that quote but don't want to accept that fact. So they are trying every way possible to figure out how to cheat the death angel.

The second part of that quote no one wants to believe so they have decided to relegate God to the dust bin of myths and refuse to believe in Him.

Just about everyone here are concerned with those who die from assault style weapons forgetting that we must die due to some cause.
Every 4 seconds 7 people die.
Every 60 seconds 105 people die.
Every hour 6,316 people die.
Every day 151,600 people die.
Every year 55.3 million people die.
Every year 40 to 50 million pregnancies are terminated.

Where is the outrage about all these deaths?

Everyone is going to die it is just a matter of how and when.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Pressie, posted 11-06-2018 4:11 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Pressie, posted 11-07-2018 6:48 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 591 of 613 (842725)
11-06-2018 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 580 by Percy
11-05-2018 1:28 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

So you're in favor of background checks for all gun purchases? Most states do not require background checks for gun purchases at gun shows. What state do you live in?

I live in Florida. I open carry when hunting and fishing. The rest of the time you don't know if I am carrying or not.

It makes no difference whether a state has background checks or not. It is a Federal law that all licensed gun dealers run a background check prior to turning a weapon over to a buyer.

The same goes for buying a gun online. It has to be shipped to a licensed dealer who runs the background check before delivery of the weapon to the purchaser.

In 28 states there are exemption from a background check for CC license holders and the exemptions vary from state to state.

Florida does not have an exemption so every time I purchase a gun I have to go through the background check.

Percy writes:

Don't you think gun registries would be very helpful in crime solving?

No. Because the crooks don't go to a licensed dealer to purchase a gun. So the guns they use would not be registered. Most weapons they use have been stolen from different entities.

Percy writes:

A more informed electorate would help, too. Trump tells the people at his rallies that (for example, there are a wide range of topics Trump lies about to choose from) Democrats want open borders and they believe him.

What lie does Trump tell?
I was there when the following happened.

Didn't the Democrats promise Reagan that they would close the border if he would grant amnesty to 2.7 million illegal aliens in 1986?

They got the amnesty but did nothing to shut the border. They have had plenty of opportunities to keep that promise in the last 32 years.

So you tell me why I should believe they have changed their mind and are now for closing the border?

If they are not for closing the border then they are for open borders so Trump is not lying.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Percy, posted 11-05-2018 1:28 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Percy, posted 11-06-2018 1:03 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6248
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 592 of 613 (842726)
11-06-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by Phat
11-06-2018 9:21 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
He is good isn't he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Phat, posted 11-06-2018 9:21 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 593 of 613 (842727)
11-06-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by ICANT
11-06-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Congratulations on avoiding the question. You said you were at a gun show where they had 25 people doing background checks, and I asked if you were in favor of background checks for all gun sales, mentioning that laws about background checks at gun shows vary by state. You replied about everything but gun shows.

So you live in Florida, which has no law requiring background checks. Of course any federally licensed gun seller must conduct a background check whether it's at a Florida gun show or not, but no background check is required for private sales in Florida. Gee, I wonder from whom a gun buyer who knew he wouldn't pass a background check would buy a firearm?

So let's see if you can answer the question this time: Are you in favor of background checks for all gun sales?

We already know you're against effective gun registration.

Percy writes:

Don't you think gun registries would be very helpful in crime solving?

No. Because the crooks don't go to a licensed dealer to purchase a gun. So the guns they use would not be registered. Most weapons they use have been stolen from different entities.

You're wrong again. Most unjustified homicides are not committed by criminals - they're committed by law abiding citizens, or at least they were law abiding up to that point. Say a guy gets annoyed at the loud music from next door, takes his gun, and kills his neighbor. The police have no clues until they look up the rifling in the registry database and discover the gun is registered to the next door neighbor. Crime solved.

Or how about the recent disappearance of Jayme Kloss. What if her parents murderer used a gun registered to him? What if he stole the gun from a neighbor where he lived, which would considerably narrow down the search?

Percy writes:

A more informed electorate would help, too. Trump tells the people at his rallies that (for example, there are a wide range of topics Trump lies about to choose from) Democrats want open borders and they believe him.

What lie does Trump tell?

What lie doesn't Trump tell? If his lips are moving he's lying. The Washington Post keeps a database of Trump falsehoods and misleading statements which is at 6420 and counting to this point in his presidency.

One of the lies that Trump likes to tell the most at his campaign rallies is that Democrats want open borders. Even the most rabid Trumpublican, assuming he's informed, would know that's not true.

I was there when the following happened.

No, you were not there. You were alive at the time, but you were not there.

Didn't the Democrats promise Reagan that they would close the border if he would grant amnesty to 2.7 million illegal aliens in 1986?

You're misremembering. It looks like you're talking about the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, signed into law by Reagan in November of 1986. No one ever wanted the border closed or would want the border closed, not the Republicans or the Democrats.

They got the amnesty but did nothing to shut the border.

What idiot would want to shut the border?

They have had plenty of opportunities to keep that promise in the last 32 years.

Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want or has ever wanted the borders closed, not at any time during the last 32 years or at any time before going back to the nation's beginning.

Republicans have controlled the presidency and both houses of Congress for the last two years. If they really wanted to do something as stupid as closing the borders then the Democrats could not have stopped them.

So you tell me why I should believe they have changed their mind and are now for closing the border?

If they are not for closing the border then they are for open borders so Trump is not lying.

Why do you keep repeating the same insane stuff. Nobody wants or has ever wanted to close the borders, and if Republicans really wanted to close the borders then they have it within their power to do it. They don't need Democrats.

But Trump *is* lying when he says Democrats are for open borders. They are not. No one is for open borders, and no one is for closed borders. Why do you keep saying such moronic things?

The reality is that Democrats are as much for border security as Republicans, but they understand that walls are an ineffective way of achieving it. More effective border security would involve greater use of technology, improved data sharing and cooperation with Mexican authorities, helping Central American countries address the economic and criminal issues that drive illegal immigration, and increased manpower, training and equipment, including for the Coast Guard.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 10:52 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1919
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 594 of 613 (842746)
11-07-2018 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by ICANT
11-06-2018 9:57 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Your so-called answer to my post doesn't make any sense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 9:57 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 595 of 613 (842752)
11-07-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by ICANT
11-05-2018 10:35 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.


It isn't an opinion. It's a fact, as evidenced by the statistics cited in this thread.

ICANT writes:

I believe I have a constitutional right to own and bear arms.


As I said, the constitutional right to bear arms doesn't give you the moral right to blow people's heads off - any more than the legal right to own slaves gave people the moral right.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 10:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by NosyNed, posted 11-08-2018 9:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 596 of 613 (842772)
11-08-2018 7:23 AM


Another Mass Shooting
Thirteen people were killed in a shooting at the Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, California. A Sheriff's deputy is among the dead, as is the suspected gunman. Only one handgun has been found so far. More as details become available: 13 Dead Including Gunman in Shooting at California Bar

It was college night at the Borderline, which was offering country two-step lessons. A number of students from Pepperdine were present.

This is late breaking news, more as it comes in.

AbE1: Washington Post article: 12 people killed, including sheriff’s deputy, in ‘horrific’ California bar shooting, police say

The gunman was tall with a black hoodie. He stopped to load a new magazine at least once.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : ABE1.


Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by vimesey, posted 11-08-2018 11:40 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 601 by Percy, posted 11-08-2018 4:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8812
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 597 of 613 (842782)
11-08-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
11-07-2018 11:03 AM


Facts and Statistics
It isn't an opinion. It's a fact, as evidenced by the statistics cited in this thread.

A statistical fact tells you about a number of samples. It does not tell you a "fact" about the specific case.

The statistics tell you that in a population possessing guns those that have them in the house are in the sub-population that will have more gun incidents than the sub population that doesn't.

It doesn't tell you a fact about one individual.

My mother and I used to endlessly argue about smoking. I couldn't say that she would for sure get lung cancer (it killed her in the end but at 89) all I could say was there were two large groups of people out there and one had many fewer deaths from various cancers. I couldn't say for a fact that going over to join one would mean I wouldn't get cancer but I could say it seemed like a reasonably bet to join the that seemed to be doing better.

You can't tell ICANT that he is less safe with a gun in the house as a fact for him based on population statistics.

But what he should ask himself is, having chosen to join a population that is demonstratively less safe, why should he think he isn't subject to whatever causes them to be less safe.

The fact is he has chosen to put himself and his family and friends into a factually less safe group of people without knowing if he is someone different from that population so that the statistics of the population don't apply.

Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 11-08-2018 10:50 AM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 599 by Tangle, posted 11-08-2018 10:51 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 598 of 613 (842784)
11-08-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by NosyNed
11-08-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Facts and Statistics
Nosyned writes:

You can't tell ICANT that he is less safe with a gun in the house as a fact for him based on population statistics.


I don't mean to say that ICANT is less safe - though he probably is. I mean to say that everybody around him is less safe because of his careless attitude toward gun safety.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by NosyNed, posted 11-08-2018 9:58 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6248
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 599 of 613 (842785)
11-08-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by NosyNed
11-08-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Facts and Statistics
NosyNed writes:

A statistical fact tells you about a number of samples. It does not tell you a "fact" about the specific case.

The relevant fact is that he is statistically more at risk at home with a gun than without one (if, indeed, that's what they say).

It's a statement of the obvious that statistics can't guarantee an individual event - they're probabilities.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by NosyNed, posted 11-08-2018 9:58 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 896
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 600 of 613 (842788)
11-08-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Percy
11-08-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Another Mass Shooting
Another day, another pile of the needlessly dead.
Another chance for the slathering gun lobby, obese with cash, to argue for yet looser gun controls, and for the profitable sale of yet more guns to untrained teachers/bar staff/ hell, everyone - because then every John Wayne there would (naturally) be able to stop the murderer (even though in this case, two highly trained and experienced police officers on the scene were not able to). Because the gun lobby gives not the slightest crap about anyone's life - deaths are just another opportunity to make yet more money.

I give it half a day before sombre faced hypocrites spout the trite "thoughts and prayers."

Empty words, that come in pairs.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Percy, posted 11-08-2018 7:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 601 of 613 (842817)
11-08-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Percy
11-08-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Another Mass Shooting
Here's a little information about the gun used in the mass shooting at the Borderline Bar & Grill. It was a .45 caliber Glock 21 semi-automatic fitted with an extended 30 round magazine, purchased legally. I don't know what type of bullets were used. See Thousand Oaks shooting: What we know about the massacre at Borderline Bar and Grill for a lot more information.

This is more evidence (as if more were needed) that guns shouldn't be available to the general population. They are too dangerous. Single-shot hunting rifles, that's it, and I'm not enthusiastic about them either.

I saw the statistical discussion above about the overall versus the individual. I'll just add that when you talk to gun nuts they'll all tell you they're way above average in safety, gun maintenance and accuracy, and that the statistics don't apply to them. But even if a gun enthusiast were the most sure-handed, mentally acute and determinedly careful person in the world, that doesn't mean they could never suffer a mental breakdown, a decline in nervous function, an anger attack, a mistake in judgment, a finger flinch, a brain illness, a high fever causing hallucinations, a senior moment, a slow general decline that goes unnoticed because it is so slow (true of all us), etc.

Those last couple examples were age-related. I believe keeping your guns as you age should be the hardest thing in the world, certainly much more difficult than retaining your driver's license.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Add "purchased legally," info from a NYT article.

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Percy, posted 11-08-2018 7:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
RewPrev1
...
36373839
40
41Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018