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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 106 of 129 (839542)
09-10-2018 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:22 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena and there is lots of it. If you discount it as you do then of course you have no evidence at all, but you're just fooling yourself in that case.

That does not change the fact that witness evidence is still about the weakest possible evidence subject to the greatest amount of error.

But a bigger issue is included in your assertion itself when you say "Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena ...". Why is witness evidence the only possible evidence and if true, why does that not set off alarm bells and warnings that say "Wait, discount this evidence"?

In looking at everything else in reality it is possible to find evidence other than witness evidence so what makes you think that something that can only be detected by witness evidence actually exists?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:49 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 107 of 129 (839543)
09-10-2018 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
09-10-2018 7:41 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
How are you going to have any other kind of evidence for spiritual or supernatural phenomena than witness evidence?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 09-10-2018 7:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-10-2018 8:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 108 of 129 (839545)
09-10-2018 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:49 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

How are you going to have any other kind of evidence for spiritual or supernatural phenomena than witness evidence?

I don't know of anyway including witness testimony that there could be evidence for spiritual or supernatural phenomena. You are the one claiming witness testimony is evidence.

And as I have said witness testimony is the least reliable most error prone possible evidence. If you wish to use such pitiful evidence then you must show how it can be of value or relevance. For example how can evidence supporting some Christian God be any more relevant or valuable than the evidence for the Hindu or animist or Greek or Norse Gods? How is anything you post better evidence than "There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is His Prophet"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 109 of 129 (839550)
09-10-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:22 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena and there is lots of it.


A large amount of bad data doesn't add up to good evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-13-2018 9:33 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 110 of 129 (839692)
09-13-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
09-10-2018 12:04 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
At best we can be eternally skeptical of any and all witness evidence.

What makes us think that all of it is invalid, however? I am myself a witness to unknown phenomena. Granted I labeled it as supernatural due in part to confirmation bias, but there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 12:02 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 111 of 129 (839739)
09-14-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-13-2018 9:33 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

I am myself a witness to unknown phenomena.


Me too.

Phat writes:

Granted I labeled it as supernatural...


You contradict yourself. If you're labelling it a supernatural, you're not labelling it as unknown. You're trying to reassure yourself that you do know.

Phat writes:

... there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


Isn't the pursuit of truth reason enough?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-13-2018 9:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-08-2018 7:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 112 of 129 (842836)
11-08-2018 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
09-14-2018 12:02 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

... there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


ringo writes:

Isn't the pursuit of truth reason enough?

Critics would argue that more truth is found through witness testimony than in spite of it.

There is no enough evidence to support whether Jesus existed or not...nor whether God is real or not. There are many witnesses that affirm these things, and a small percentage of them are credible and reasonable to believe.

On the contrary, those few who write of evidence against these stories usually have an ax to grind...they seem nearly obsessed with laying this stuff to rest. I don't trust them.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 11:15 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 113 of 129 (842865)
11-09-2018 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
11-08-2018 7:35 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

Critics would argue that more truth is found through witness testimony than in spite of it.


Idiots might argue that. What credible critics do you have in mind?

Phat writes:

There are many witnesses that affirm these things....


There are many witnesses of flying saucers and alien close encounters and probings and Loch Ness monsters and bigfeet and ghosts and conspiracies and... and... and... and.... Are they all credible?

Phat writes:

On the contrary, those few who write of evidence against these stories usually have an ax to grind...


Nonsense. Searching for the truth is not an axe.

Phat writes:

I don't trust them.


You should trust the evidence - and you shouldn't trust stories that are not based on evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-08-2018 7:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 4:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 114 of 129 (842878)
11-09-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
11-09-2018 11:15 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

There are many witnesses of flying saucers and alien close encounters and probings and Loch Ness monsters and bigfeet and ghosts and conspiracies and... and... and... and... Are they all credible?

You can't lump The Resurrection in with Loch Ness Monsters and Bigfoot. And as I mentioned before, most witness testimonies are questionable. It's the ones that are not that we focus on.
One standard answer that appears logical was given here:
Eyewitness testimony of the resurrection, as recorded in the New Testament, is the basis of faith in Jesus as Christ. In John 15:27 and Acts 1:8, Jesus tells His apostles that they were to be witnesses. Peter speaks to the others in Acts 1 of David's prophecy that God swore He would bring forth Christ and raise Him up. Peter said (Acts 2:31-32) he saw Jesus before the resurrection and "God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact." (Also read Acts 3:15; 4:33; 10:39-41.)

However, the apostles were not the only ones who saw the risen Jesus. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James were the first (Mark 16). Paul lists several witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Among Jesus' disciples, there were 500 other witnesses. And the Jewish Law of Moses required at least two or three witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6).

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Jesus spoke these words in Luke 24:44.

So how credible were all the "witnesses" claiming to have actually seen the resurrected Son of God? Their accounts have withstood the test of time (over 2000 years). Many of them were put to death since they could not renounce their testimonies of His resurrection. But are these recorded testimonies enough? Yes, but in addition, Jesus promised after His ascension this: "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses. . ." (Acts 1:8). The Holy Spirit came in His place to bear witness to all flesh.

It is through the Holy Spirit that believers know within that all reported, recorded, and spiritually revealed about Jesus is true. Proverbs 1:22-23 says "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you."

Of course you will argue, among other things, that there is no witness from any "Holy Spirit" as believers often behave as bad or worse than unbelievers. You find it odd that we believers never seem to want to follow what you see as the basic message. Its almost as if you once stomped off from the church declaring that religion was full of it yet that you would accept only the duty of the message and needed no one to tell you what to do! That's a bit of an ax, one would think. This whole pursuit of truth fallacy won't ever be conclusive!

Believers may never prove a case for Christ, but unbelievers will never have enough evidence against such a possibility either. The stories stand as they are, and the debate focuses on the authors and the motives of such authors.

Also look at known respected Bible Teachers such as Henrietta Mears. She surely read the book many times from cover to cover and had valid conclusions on the authorship of the book. No ax there. Critics who attempt to trash her conclusions, in contrast, are hardly pristine seekers of truth...they spread discord and controversy among truth seekers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 11:15 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 115 of 129 (842921)
11-10-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
11-09-2018 4:01 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

You can't lump The Resurrection in with Loch Ness Monsters and Bigfoot.


Yes I can. In fact, there is better evidence for the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot than for the resurrection.

quoting "one standard answer", Phat writes:

"Eyewitness testimony of the resurrection, as recorded in the New Testament, is the basis of faith in Jesus as Christ."


Then there's no basis for faith in Jesus.

Phat writes:

And as I mentioned before, most witness testimonies are questionable. It's the ones that are not that we focus on.


We have no witnesses at all for the resurrection, neither questionable nor otherwise.

Phat writes:

Its almost as if you once stomped off from the church declaring that religion was full of it yet that you would accept only the duty of the message and needed no one to tell you what to do! That's a bit of an ax, one would think.


It's an axe that you've made up in your head.

Phat writes:

This whole pursuit of truth fallacy won't ever be conclusive!


Truth may not be conclusive but false is.

Phat writes:

Believers may never prove a case for Christ, but unbelievers will never have enough evidence against such a possibility either.


We don't need evidence against.

Phat writes:

The stories stand as they are, and the debate focuses on the authors and the motives of such authors.


What matters is whether the stories are true. If not, it doesn't really matter why the authors made them up. As Linus Van pelt once said, "Maybe they needed the money."

Phat writes:

Also look at known respected Bible Teachers such as Henrietta Mears. She surely read the book many times from cover to cover and had valid conclusions on the authorship of the book. No ax there.


Are you suggesting that she read the book with no pre-conceived notions on whether it was "true" or "false"? I don't believe that.

Phat writes:

Critics who attempt to trash her conclusions, in contrast, are hardly pristine seekers of truth...they spread discord and controversy among truth seekers.


Now you're just lashing out. You have no justification for attacking the motives of skeptics.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 116 of 129 (842964)
11-11-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
11-10-2018 10:50 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

You have no justification for attacking the motives of skeptics.

I certainly question why they are skeptical and also why they are usually so adamantly against Christians in general. If I am lashing out at all, I am doing so in part out of ongoing curiosity. It is why I go round and round with you. If I found out later in life that you started a homeless shelter in Saskatchewan called SpareChange.Org, I would be humbled and impressed in that you actually were a Christian who merely refused to claim the title. If, on the other hand, I only came to saw you as a contrarian obstructionist who likes clever arguments, I would feel that my lashing out was necessary to defend belief in general as being rational. Of course one could challenge me to start my own soup kitchen...I have a friend who is starting one for the homeless which he named "The Sloppy Agape"...

In fact, there is better evidence for the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot than for the resurrection.
Not in terms of the impact that each event has and had on people. Henrietta Mears may well have had pre-conceived notions...not may people can claim to have original notions with no influence whatsoever...but she impacted a lot of people for the better. Had she believed in BigFoot instead of Jesus, she would never have been heard of.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:20 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 117 of 129 (842970)
11-11-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
11-10-2018 10:50 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

Then there's no basis for faith in Jesus.

Sure there is. You embraced His message...even if you don't believe He existed in any way different from Elmer Gantry. You certainly have shown no evidence of arguing as persuasively for or against Big Foot or even Long John Silver. Oh wait...Long John Silver was a character made up from an author. You may have a point that Believers, in general, make up the Jesus that they want. This says nothing about who the author was, who the authors were, or again as I insist...the motives of these many authors. Why can't you and I become authors and add to the storyline? What would your Jesus be doing today in the age of trump, War in Yemen, and EvC Forums?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 118 of 129 (842974)
11-11-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
11-11-2018 1:45 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

I certainly question why they are skeptical...


Because skepticism is the correct approach to any question.

Phat writes:

... and also why they are usually so adamantly against Christians in general.


If it was some other religion throwing nonsense at us, then it would be met with the same skepticism.

Phat writes:

If, on the other hand, I only came to saw you as a contrarian obstructionist who likes clever arguments, I would feel that my lashing out was necessary to defend belief in general as being rational.


But belief isn't rational.

Phat writes:

Not in terms of the impact that each event has and had on people.


Impact is irrelevant. The Kardashians have hade a lot of impact; it doesn't mean they have any value.

Phat writes:

Henrietta Mears may well have had pre-conceived notions...not may people can claim to have original notions with no influence whatsoever...


The important thing is to throw out your pre-conceived notions when they're proven false, not prop them up with spit and spider webs.

Phat writes:

...but she impacted a lot of people for the better. Had she believed in BigFoot instead of Jesus, she would never have been heard of.


You don't know that. (By the way, I had never heard of her.)

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:28 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 119 of 129 (842977)
11-11-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:12 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

You embraced His message...


I embraced THE message.

Phat writes:

You certainly have shown no evidence of arguing as persuasively for or against Big Foot or even Long John Silver.


YOU have shown no evidence of arguing for Jesus persuasively.

Phat writes:

What would your Jesus be doing today in the age of trump, War in Yemen, and EvC Forums?


A better question would be: What would YOU be doing if Jesus was here? Would you be refusing to His face to do what He said? Would you say He was poisoned by left-wing propaganda (far, far left)?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 120 of 129 (842979)
11-11-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:20 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

Impact is irrelevant. The Kardashians have had a lot of impact; it doesn't mean they have any value.

Perhaps I should elaborate. The Resurrection obviously had impact and value. People won't even remember the Kardashians except as tabloid trivia...unless one of them does something meaningful for society. Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection were meaningful for society-at-large. One could argue that only the message had value. That it was told at all and preserved through antiquity confirms the value of the impact.
Does that make any sense?

My point is that impact with a purpose has value.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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