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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 548 of 1444 (795159)
12-07-2016 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by PaulK
12-07-2016 12:31 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ?
Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan. Our responsibility is in choosing our leader. There is no default. One thing that I have noticed in reading scripture is that God tells the doers of evil to depart that he never knew them. which could mean that God has no foreknowledge of evil...He merely allowed it as a possibility. Evil is never actualized until someone chooses it. Given that there is an alternative choice...through our Lord Jesus Christ...I would say that God has already fulfilled His responsibility and it is up to us to actualize it.
We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ?
First of all, humans have no power or authority to hold God to any standard...despite the claims by jar that one of the Gods of scripture is corrected by humans and learns on the job. That is the silliest notion of a Creator of all seen and unseen that I have ever heard. The problem is that many people envision God as a creation of the human mind anyway...which makes this whole conversation superfluous.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 12:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 1:30 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 549 of 1444 (795160)
12-07-2016 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by jar
12-06-2016 9:06 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.
What if God only knows that we have free will? What if He has intentionally left our destiny up to us?
In this case I would admit that God is not all knowing, but I would add that this is a decision by His choice...so as to leave us responsible for our destiny.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 9:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 12-07-2016 8:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 550 of 1444 (795161)
12-07-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Asgara
12-06-2016 7:52 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Either he is omniscient or he is not. You tell me which.
OK, Dear. He has intentionally left your destiny up to yourself. make the most of it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:52 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 553 of 1444 (795193)
12-08-2016 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jar
12-07-2016 8:05 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
The problem is when Christians claim God is omniscient.
No, I believe that the problem comes when people claim to be omniscient regarding GOD and that by claiming we know Him so well, we actually create division among people here on earth. Let me ask you this: In your belief, is GOD omniscient? Also please explain to me yet again the difference between GOD, God, and god.(One of jars educated beliefs discussed at length elsewhere on EvC)
jar writes:
If God is not omniscient then God is also not all powerful.
so now we are talking about the God that humans create. GOD apparently is unknowable, though my belief asserts that holy communion can at least be established with GOD through Jesus Christ. To me, the idea that the Creator of all seen and unseen is not all-powerful stems from a different religion and understanding than the one I was brought up in.
jar writes:
And if God is not omniscient then God is capable of making mistakes.
Would you say that GOD can make mistakes?
jar writes:
Which brings us back to many of the Gods described in the Bible stories, a God that is not all knowing, that does not know the future, that does make mistakes and that does need correcting at times.
The God of your imagination certainly seems to be agreeable to this philosophy. The God of my imagination is against such blasphemy.
The problem is the difference between the Gods we create and the GOD.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 12-07-2016 8:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 3:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 555 of 1444 (795215)
12-08-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by jar
12-08-2016 3:05 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:
Who claims to know GOD?
Lots of people. And lots of them have read the Bible and studied it thoroughly...yet few have reached the conclusion that you have. So perhaps a better question would be Who claims to know the Bible and how have they arrived at their conclusions?
We are discussing God and Omniscience based on the Bibles revelation as to who God is.
I have no doubt that you have read the Bible and that you teach it as you understand it. I also know that many have not read the Bible...I dont claim to be an expert. But I also know that many have read the bible and they teach it a lot different than you do. I dont believe that they are all simply con artists. There are many men who read it and understand it...my Pastor is one of them. When I ask him about some of what we discuss, his response is that the people whom i talk with are not believers.
Thus, one major difference I see between you and the others is that you have not accepted the "new religion" that you claim Paul and the redactors teach and have spread.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 3:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 7:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 557 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 558 of 1444 (795260)
12-09-2016 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Tangle
12-09-2016 3:20 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
How rude! None of you know my Pastor. I assure you he helps people more than most Christians do. He feeds the hungry, shelters,encourages, etc etc...all the works gospel of Matthew 25. He does it for free, too. The man is not paid much except in his secular job. You attack him based only on the idea that he accepts belief over evidence. I too go with belief because i reject the wisdom of this world. You go with evidence because you basically believe in human wisdom more than belief. I have seen enough subjective evidence myself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2016 3:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 560 of 1444 (814480)
07-10-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
07-21-2015 10:59 AM


** FOREknowledge** Remix.
This old topic deserves some more attention. The arguments presented are still unclear to me as I grasp the implications of the God I market.
We were discussing Free Will vs Omniscience.
jar writes:
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
What the person does and whether or not it is done through freewill is totally irrelevant.
It is only the acts of the God that are relevant.
My first question today is this: How could GOD conceivably not have foreknowledge?
You once commented the following:
jar writes:
GOD sent us the message that we all start out saved. Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist, or Anamist, all start even. When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?
You won't be able to say that "The world is filled with sin" or "We are all Fallen" or "The Sins of Adam" or even "I'm a Christian". None of those will carry any weight. The judgment will be on what you did and what you might have done, and the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both.
How is it that God has perfect knowledge of what we did and what we might have done yet not be evil in one case yet not in the other case?
Edited by Phat, : spell

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by jar, posted 07-10-2017 11:58 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 562 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 12:00 PM Phat has replied
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-10-2017 12:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 570 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 11:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 564 of 1444 (814501)
07-10-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by ringo
07-10-2017 12:23 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
It seems that we all approach this topic differently.
jar sticks with God as described in the Bible and never attempts to define or market God. Its because he focuses on our charge rather than on His involvement.
ringo, you stand by your atheism and simply point out the illogic of any attempt at
speculating as to Gods nature. Its also because you by-and-large agree with jar. I wish you would hypothesize with me now and then.
Tangle is more militant about evidence over belief and suggests that belief has outlived its usefulness.
I will be forming a line of thought shortly. This morning i'm taking a nap before work. This sort of stuff stresses me out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-10-2017 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by ringo, posted 07-10-2017 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 566 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 1:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 567 of 1444 (814659)
07-11-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Stile
07-10-2017 12:00 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Do you mean this topic? The Problem Of Evil

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 12:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by Stile, posted 07-12-2017 12:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 569 of 1444 (817952)
08-22-2017 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by ringo
06-13-2016 12:10 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
I'm trying mightily to figure you out! For now, I'm continuing our Word was Not Jesus argument over here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be quite the contrarian in terms of popular definitions of Christianity. jar is, of course, the one at EvC responsible for your enlightened thinking.
Admittedly, he gets me to think also, but I don't like his interpretation of Christianity. The whole Matthew 25 we are responsible schtick, because people don't even have to believe anything anymore. they simply have to do unto the least. This also fits in with your far left political views.
ringo writes:
How could Jesus become something He always was?
What was He? The Nicene Creed says he was made man. That implies that he stepped out of eternity into time and took on a fleshly body.
ringo writes:
I'd start by saying that "in the beginning was the word" has nothing to do with Jesus.
So tell me what you think it means.
ringo,to Faith writes:
I'm still discarding the last vestiges of your so-called "gospel" after being shackled to it for forty years.
So for you God is an unnecessary fiction in our minds and you feel it worthwhile to challenge religious minds with secular common sense.
ringo writes:
We do NOT know whether or not God exists. It is reasonable to deny his existence, given the total lack of evidence that he does exist. Also, given the way he is described by his devotees, it is reasonable to reject him.
So in your opinion, what does the author of john mean? And why should I accept your definition when over 75% of the commentators, (yes, they have read the Bible, jar ) explain it differently?
ringo writes:
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
Some of us want to replace God with ourselves.
ringo writes:
How can you learn anything if you don't get a chance to change your behaviour?
What do you mean by chance? I have issues with that word....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 06-13-2016 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by ringo, posted 08-22-2017 1:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 572 of 1444 (842965)
11-11-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by ringo
07-10-2017 12:23 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
How could GOD conceivably not have foreknowledge?
ringo writes:
Omniscience and omnipotence are made-up qualities, like Rumpelstiltskin's ability to spin straw into gold. It has no connection with reality.
On the one hand you have a point in that humans make this stuff up. On the other hand, GOD if GOD exists created us long before we even had the imagination to make Him up. I am arguing that GOD may exist in reality. You may bray about lack of evidence, but I am claiming (again) that evidence is an unnecessary precondition of this argument.
You have to give the concept of Belief more credit.
ringo writes:
Truth may not be conclusive but false is.
And to that, I would argue that no solid case as been made falsifying the belief. I would also again ask why you keep grinding this axe that you claim not to be grinding. Is it simply to hone your clever argumentative skills? (I will admit that that reason is part of my motive)
We don't need evidence against.
Agreed. What you need to do is to consider belief as a viable option.
What matters is whether the stories are true. If not, it doesn't really matter why the authors made them up.
You claim not to need evidence against the idea. What is frustrating is that you took the trademark---one message among many---and threw out other messages plus the whole point of the stories in general...which is Christ. Or are you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT? Oh, and I almost forgot...I am posting in another topic right now...so let's get back to our discussion here. (sorry! )
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-10-2017 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 574 of 1444 (842971)
11-11-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:10 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:
re you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT?
ringo writes:
Of course I am. The messenger is not the message. The map is not the territory.
So in the Book Of Ringo, what is the central message of the NT? Can what is written support your assertion...apart from your beloved Matthew 25?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 575 of 1444 (842973)
11-11-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:10 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Almost everybody I know is religious.
Out of curiosity, do you ever argue(or discuss these things) with them? Or do you all talk about other things and live peacefully side by side? Also...do you respect any of them for what they do apart from their religion? Would you honestly think they would be better off without the religion? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 578 of 1444 (842985)
11-11-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:32 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
I don't hate Matthew 25...I just find it simplistic that jar, in particular, can talk of a Bible with a "God" that humans created...a Serpent that told the truth and was a plot device, and yet wax poetic about Matthew 25 as the central message to be hung on the wall. If anything, I'm jealous. Matthew 25 is a great message...though I don't see the Goats as being Christians nor do I see the message suggesting global inclusivism.
I get angry that he preaches the bible this way...of focusing on us as the prime responsibility and somehow able to make it without the very messenger which told us the message. But I'll admit that you defended your point quite well. The two commandments summarize the whole enchilada.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 580 of 1444 (842991)
11-11-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:47 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
ou don't want to see Christians as goats.
It is certainly wrong to lump them all into one category. Goats will come from all varieties of people...even those who obey the message and live their lives on their own terms.
ringo writes:
You don't want to give up your exclusive get-out-of-hell-free club.
I don't believe that if hell exists it was created for people. It was allowed to exist as a place for free-willed angels who didn't want to live under House Rules.
What many don't understand is that life in Heaven, as many believe it to be, would not in any way be boring or restrictive. Granted you would have to learn that you couldn't smoke inside. I would say to those stubborn free willed spirits that they would be better off listening rather than clinging to their independence.
I could argue that you want a right to be left alone and get to smoke in your own house should you want to. That's a bad thing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:58 PM Phat has replied

  
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