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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1186 of 1198 (842389)
10-30-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1185 by ringo
10-29-2018 3:31 PM


obeying the laws
Yes I'm willing to defy the law when it defies God.

quote:
:Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

You really ought to know better than that by now, ringo. The Bible is very clear that where human law conflicts with God we are not to obey the human law.

  • Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

  • You might also remember that Daniel's friends in Babylon, in Daniel 3, refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar's statue which was required of them by law, and God protected them in the furnace where they were thrown as punishment for their refusal.

  • And in Daniel 6 how Daniel disobeyed the law requiring that no one ask a petition of any God or man except the king, and was thrown into the lions' den, where God also protected him as He had his friends. Pretty clear teaching that God says to obey Him and not the human powers where they conflict with God's laws and purposes.

  • In Revelation we are told that we are to disobey a decree to take a certain mark onto hand or forehead.

  • Then there are the many Christians who were persecuted down the centuries for refusing to obey various laws such as to worship Caesar, or to affirm transubstantiation or even to translate the Bible into the common languages.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : punctuation


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 3:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1187 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:28 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1187 of 1198 (842426)
10-31-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1186 by Faith
10-30-2018 3:45 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Faith writes:

The Bible is very clear that where human law conflicts with God we are not to obey the human law.


I quoted where it says exactly the opposite. Clearly it isn't as "clear" as you pretend.

And of course, what we're talking about here is loving thy homosexual neighbour as thyself. Jesus said that all of the law hangs on that.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by Faith, posted 10-30-2018 3:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by Faith, posted 11-01-2018 4:34 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1188 of 1198 (842488)
11-01-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1187 by ringo
10-31-2018 1:28 PM


Re: obeying the laws
It isn't loving one's neighbor as oneself to deceive him that he is OK with God when in fact he is practicing sin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by ringo, posted 11-02-2018 12:08 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1189 of 1198 (842522)
11-02-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1188 by Faith
11-01-2018 4:34 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Faith writes:

It isn't loving one's neighbor as oneself to deceive him that he is OK with God when in fact he is practicing sin.


Loving your neighbour doesn't involve judging him at all. Love is unconditional.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by Faith, posted 11-01-2018 4:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1190 by Faith, posted 11-02-2018 7:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 1190 of 1198 (842566)
11-02-2018 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1189 by ringo
11-02-2018 12:08 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Oh blithering pagan idiocy. What the devil told Eve as a matter of fact: no problem, sin won't kill you, naaaa, it will make you wise like God, it's good for you.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1189 by ringo, posted 11-02-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:10 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1191 of 1198 (842647)
11-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1190 by Faith
11-02-2018 7:47 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Faith writes:

What the devil told Eve as a matter of fact: no problem, sin won't kill you, naaaa, it will make you wise like God, it's good for you.


God confirmed what the serpent said. They did become more like Him.

But that has nothing to do with the post you're responding to. I pointed out that loving your neighbour doesn't permit you to judge his actions.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1190 by Faith, posted 11-02-2018 7:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by Faith, posted 11-06-2018 3:15 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1192 of 1198 (842734)
11-06-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by ringo
11-04-2018 1:10 PM


Re: obeying the laws
... loving your neighbour doesn't permit you to judge his actions.

Actually that's not true, loving my neighbor may precisely require me to judge his actions, depends on the context.

But I fear we're losing the thread here. Where we started was with my saying I won't obey a human law that contradicts God's law, and in this discussion that means any law that would require me to treat gay marriage as legitimate or homosexuality as normal. Since you falsely turn this into a failure of love i answered that I would help a gay person bleeding in a ditch, and would offer help in many other instances as well because this has nothing to do with loving one's neighbor. And again, loving one's neighbor is really best served by obeying God because sin is what kills us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:38 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1193 of 1198 (842755)
11-07-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1192 by Faith
11-06-2018 3:15 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Faith writes:

loving my neighbor may precisely require me to judge his actions


Blatantly false.
quote:
Matthew7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by Faith, posted 11-06-2018 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 11-07-2018 5:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1194 of 1198 (842760)
11-07-2018 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by ringo
11-07-2018 11:38 AM


Re: obeying the laws
https://www.christianitytoday.com/...an-by-judge-not.htmlthe word judge can be used in two different ways in the New Testament. Sometimes judge is used to mean "judge between things," to differentiate, or discern. In this case we judge between right and wrong, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous.
But this kind of judging-the act of discernment-is not what Jesus is forbidding. In fact throughout the Bible we are commanded to discern. In the same chapter of Luke 6 and in the very same discourse as the famous "judge not" statement, Jesus talks about having the discernment to see the difference between good people and evil people (Luke 6:43-45). He compares them to trees. Good trees, he says, produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit. The call to differentiate good from evil is to judge, to discern, correctly.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by ringo, posted 11-08-2018 10:46 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1196 by Astrophile, posted 11-13-2018 5:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1198 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-14-2018 9:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1195 of 1198 (842783)
11-08-2018 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
11-07-2018 5:41 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Faith writes:

In the same chapter of Luke 6 and in the very same discourse as the famous "judge not" statement, Jesus talks about having the discernment to see the difference between good people and evil people (Luke 6:43-45). He compares them to trees. Good trees, he says, produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit. The call to differentiate good from evil is to judge, to discern, correctly.


The good and corrupt trees are meant to refer to YOU and YOUR fruit. I have pointed that out to you before:
quote:
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
It is the Father who judges/discerns.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 11-07-2018 5:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Astrophile
Member
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 1196 of 1198 (843161)
11-13-2018 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
11-07-2018 5:41 PM


Re: obeying the laws
faith writes:

In the same chapter of Luke 6 and in the very same discourse as the famous "judge not" statement, Jesus talks about having the discernment to see the difference between good people and evil people (Luke 6:43-45). He compares them to trees. Good trees, he says, produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit. The call to differentiate good from evil is to judge, to discern, correctly.

I've always thought that this was a very odd thing for Jesus to say. After all, he was a carpenter, so I should have expected him to think of good and bad trees chiefly in terms of the quality and usefulness of their wood rather than of the edibility of their fruit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 11-07-2018 5:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1197 by ringo, posted 11-14-2018 2:32 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 1197 of 1198 (843209)
11-14-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1196 by Astrophile
11-13-2018 5:57 PM


Re: obeying the laws
Astrophile writes:

After all, he was a carpenter, so I should have expected him to think of good and bad trees chiefly in terms of the quality and usefulness of their wood rather than of the edibility of their fruit.


"Every two-by-four in me that beareth knot-holes he taketh away...."

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by Astrophile, posted 11-13-2018 5:57 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1198 of 1198 (843222)
11-14-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
11-07-2018 5:41 PM


(odd synchronism) Re: obeying the laws as it is related to "good fruit"
Faith said:

quote:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/...an-by-judge-not.htmlthe word judge can be used in two different ways in the New Testament. Sometimes judge is used to mean "judge between things," to differentiate, or discern. In this case we judge between right and wrong, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous.
But this kind of judging-the act of discernment-is not what Jesus is forbidding. In fact throughout the Bible we are commanded to discern. In the same chapter of Luke 6 and in the very same discourse as the famous "judge not" statement, Jesus talks about having the discernment to see the difference between good people and evil people (Luke 6:43-45). He compares them to trees. Good trees, he says, produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit. The call to differentiate good from evil is to judge, to discern, correctly.

Something odd happened.

I went and put PERI TOV into google.

(PUT "peri tov" ALMOST as an afterthought, which is GOOD FRUIT in Hebrew)

Ironically, it led to a hit on Peri Dikaiosynēs. The Fifth Book of the Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle

And it was about "corrective justice" and "justice".

Here is all of chapter1 of book 5.

quote:

Nicomachean Ethics

By Aristotle

Written 350 B.C.E

Translated by W. D. Ross

Go to previous Table of Contents

Book V

1

With regards to justice and injustice we must (1) consider what kind of actions they are concerned with, (2) what sort of mean justice is, and (3) between what extremes the just act is intermediate. Our investigation shall follow the same course as the preceding discussions.

We see that all men mean by justice that kind of state of character which makes people disposed to do what is just and makes them act justly and wish for what is just; and similarly by injustice that state which makes them act unjustly and wish for what is unjust. Let us too, then, lay this down as a general basis. For the same is not true of the sciences and the faculties as of states of character. A faculty or a science which is one and the same is held to relate to contrary objects, but a state of character which is one of two contraries does not produce the contrary results; e.g. as a result of health we do not do what is the opposite of healthy, but only what is healthy; for we say a man walks healthily, when he walks as a healthy man would.

Now often one contrary state is recognized from its contrary, and often states are recognized from the subjects that exhibit them; for (A) if good condition is known, bad condition also becomes known, and (B) good condition is known from the things that are in good condition, and they from it. If good condition is firmness of flesh, it is necessary both that bad condition should be flabbiness of flesh and that the wholesome should be that which causes firmness in flesh. And it follows for the most part that if one contrary is ambiguous the other also will be ambiguous; e.g. if 'just' is so, that 'unjust' will be so too.

Now 'justice' and 'injustice' seem to be ambiguous, but because their different meanings approach near to one another the ambiguity escapes notice and is not obvious as it is, comparatively, when the meanings are far apart, e.g. (for here the difference in outward form is great) as the ambiguity in the use of kleis for the collar-bone of an animal and for that with which we lock a door. Let us take as a starting-point, then, the various meanings of 'an unjust man'. Both the lawless man and the grasping and unfair man are thought to be unjust, so that evidently both the law-abiding and the fair man will be just. The just, then, is the lawful and the fair, the unjust the unlawful and the unfair.

Since the unjust man is grasping, he must be concerned with goods-not all goods, but those with which prosperity and adversity have to do, which taken absolutely are always good, but for a particular person are not always good. Now men pray for and pursue these things; but they should not, but should pray that the things that are good absolutely may also be good for them, and should choose the things that are good for them. The unjust man does not always choose the greater, but also the less-in the case of things bad absolutely; but because the lesser evil is itself thought to be in a sense good, and graspingness is directed at the good, therefore he is thought to be grasping. And he is unfair; for this contains and is common to both.

Since the lawless man was seen to be unjust and the law-abiding man just, evidently all lawful acts are in a sense just acts; for the acts laid down by the legislative art are lawful, and each of these, we say, is just. Now the laws in their enactments on all subjects aim at the common advantage either of all or of the best or of those who hold power, or something of the sort; so that in one sense we call those acts just that tend to produce and preserve happiness and its components for the political society. And the law bids us do both the acts of a brave man (e.g. not to desert our post nor take to flight nor throw away our arms), and those of a temperate man (e.g. not to commit adultery nor to gratify one's lust), and those of a good-tempered man (e.g. not to strike another nor to speak evil), and similarly with regard to the other virtues and forms of wickedness, commanding some acts and forbidding others; and the rightly-framed law does this rightly, and the hastily conceived one less well. This form of justice, then, is complete virtue, but not absolutely, but in relation to our neighbour. And therefore justice is often thought to be the greatest of virtues, and 'neither evening nor morning star' is so wonderful; and proverbially 'in justice is every virtue comprehended'. And it is complete virtue in its fullest sense, because it is the actual exercise of complete virtue. It is complete because he who possesses it can exercise his virtue not only in himself but towards his neighbour also; for many men can exercise virtue in their own affairs, but not in their relations to their neighbour. This is why the saying of Bias is thought to be true, that 'rule will show the man'; for a ruler is necessarily in relation to other men and a member of a society. For this same reason justice, alone of the virtues, is thought to be 'another's good', because it is related to our neighbour; for it does what is advantageous to another, either a ruler or a copartner. Now the worst man is he who exercises his wickedness both towards himself and towards his friends, and the best man is not he who exercises his virtue towards himself but he who exercises it towards another; for this is a difficult task. Justice in this sense, then, is not part of virtue but virtue entire, nor is the contrary injustice a part of vice but vice entire. What the difference is between virtue and justice in this sense is plain from what we have said; they are the same but their essence is not the same; what, as a relation to one's neighbour, is justice is, as a certain kind of state without qualification, virtue.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html


That was a secondary google search I did, "Peri Dikaiosynēs. The Fifth Book of the Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle corrective justice", which got a page with 12 hits.

But here was where it started.

Here was the hit (number 5), when I simply put PERI TOV into google

quote:

Peri Dikaiosynēs. The Fifth Book of the Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle
https://books.google.com/books?id=1jVqa6jRrqMC
Aristotle, ‎Henry Jackson - 1879 - ‎Ethics
The otherwise strange phrases o a opos, tov a opov in n, 12 suggest this alteration, and it is confirmed by several MSS., Ha and Kb throughout 9, 11, 12, ...

Odd that the Hebrew words led to Greek words, and they were just so relevant (strangely so).

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 11-07-2018 5:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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