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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1021 of 1677 (844198)
11-26-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by Percy
11-25-2018 11:54 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Percy writes:
I didn't mean that they were all that late. When I said "by the time the gospels were written" maybe I should have said, "by the time all the gospels had been written." The last one would have been written some time between 100 and 150 AD.
That's an open question but it isn't germane anyway as they aren't original material but compilations of earlier material primarily the eye witnesses.
Percy writes:
I think that even in the very early days of Christianity when Paul was establishing the first churches that most of the converts were gentiles. The message of Paul was very different from the message of Jesus as expressed in the gospels. Paul brought a message for all mankind, not just Jews.
Frankly I have no idea of how many of the first Christians were Jewish or gentile but all of the early Christian leaders were Jewish. The Gospels include the beliefs of the disciples who right through to Acts 1 still largely understood that the Messiah would lead them in defeat of the Romans and rebuild the physical Temple. It was later that they understood and embraced the anti-revolutionary message of Jesus. Paul was essentially the first theologian who used the first written and oral accounts to crystallize Jesus' life and message.
Percy writes:
Rather than getting into it we could probably agree that reasonable people could disagree about which gospel writers were Jewish.
Sure, though I think that we can safely agree that Matthew was Jewish, although I'm not trying to make any point with that.
Percy writes:
Are you still talking about Mark 13, because I don't see where Jesus said anything about rebuilding the Temple?
Not specifically there but in His broader message He was saying that He Himself embodied the Temple, the place where one could go to have sins forgiven and to connect with God. God's dwelling place is not in a physical dwelling but in the hearts of those who embrace His message of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.
Percy writes:
Then what you believe is coming from within yourself and has no objective reality.
Yes, but it is my subjective reality. I believe it is that still small voice in all of us. I understand that still small voice to be the voice of the God in the Holy Spirit that speaks to us, but as a Christian I acknowledge that it isn't me but God, hopefully but far from fully, working through me.
Percy writes:
You're repeating the exact same arguments you made before and ignoring the rebuttal. The rebuttal is unchanged and still unaddressed, I'll repeat it. Obviously the message resonated with potential converts, evangelists would have increased their emphasis on what worked, being a leader in a religious movement does have rewards, and you're objecting to things that are true of many new religions. We observe them today all the time, like embracing persecution, encouraging an "us versus them" mentality, giving up worldly things, etc.
Once again, religions are based on human understandings . They are our attempt at understanding the nature of God and how, if at all, that should affect how we live and what we do. If we look at the rise of the very early Jesus followers they weren’t starting a new religion but were looking at reforming Judaism in a society that was hostile to their message and that separated them from friends, neighbours, culture and even threatened their lives.
Let’s look at your points one at a time. Embracing persecution. If someone is going to embrace persecution for their faith it has to be something that they very firmly believe in. For the first Christians it was all about the belief that God had resurrected Jesus. This was an event in their lifetimes and for which many would have been eye witnesses. Even Paul would have dealt with those who were eye witnesses and would have to have read or heard a very convincing argument to cause him to make such a radical change in his life and beliefs. He went from a person with a comfortable life style, prestige and influence and completely embraced one that meant he depended on the largess of others and spent considerable time in prison.
Encouraging an "us versus them" mentality. It wasn’t like that at all. It was a message that was for everyone of every nation and was, (and still is), a message that is intended to bring nations together in peace. Certainly, there have been Christians who have badly abused the basic message for their own purposes but that doesn’t negate Jesus’ message of love your neighbour AND your enemy.
Giving up worldly things. The Christian idea of giving up worldly things isn’t specific to Christianity of course. The point is that we should give up worldly things either for the point that they aren’t good for us or that it is for the benefit of others. It goes back to the point that we should love ourselves, (meaning that we don’t do things that are harmful to the our lives that are a gift from God), and that we do give up our worldly things, such as our time and finances, for the benefit of our neighbours, including our neighbours of all nations.
In reading the Gospels it is obvious that the writers believed them to be essentially truthful. They are compiled as factual and from earlier accounts. The earlier accounts would almost certainly have been given by eye witnesses or by their contemporaries. (I realize that there is no factual evidence that this I true but it is consistent with what is written.) The accounts do not write about the disciples in a positive way but show them to be self focused. There was a belief amongst many Jews that there would be a general resurrection, of presumably Jewish people, at the end of time, but there is no account anywhere of anyone anticipating this happening to anyone in the middle of time.
Percy writes:
But as Tangle keeps reminding you, the evidence isn't in your book. You're just telling yourself that there must have been evidence because otherwise Paul's conversion would make no sense. But look around you at new religions that form today. Where is their evidence? They have none, right? So why do you believe people in the Bible must have had evidence that is nowhere described in the Bible?
Actually, Luke talks about it.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Percy writes:
This is just something you believe, not something you have any evidence for. He (Paul) sure didn't go to Peter.
We have accounts of Paul having several disagreements with Peter. Peter argued for circumcision for example as he believed that gentiles should follow Jewish practices whereas Paul was very firmly against it. Obviously Paul did interact with Peter at various times.
Percy writes:
Paul's epistles predate the gospels, and the differences indicate a period of mythmaking.
Possibly, we really don’t know. There is disagreement on the whole issue. It isn’t a big issue for me but I actually think your statement is wrong. If the Gospels were compiled after 70AD or even after the start of the war in 66AD they would have recorded it. They were however compiled in a way that appears to have the Temple still standing and there is no mention of any revolution taking place. As Jesus had forecast the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple it would be only logical that they would make a note of the events thereby confirming that Jesus’ predictions had come to pass. This being the case there is a strong likelihood that the Gospels were compiled prior to some of the epistles, but certainly not prior to the information that existed either in written or oral form that was used to compile the Gospels.
Percy writes:
The gospels are just stories, but you're interpreting them far differently than most of the rest of Christianity who talk of how amazing it was that after Jesus's death the apostles continued to evangelize with renewed energy and confidence.
Well I do think that it is amazing, but I wouldn’t phrase it that they continued to evangelize but that they began to evangelize.
GDR writes:
Well we agree then that it didn't help them materially and can you explain how they would think that it would help them spiritually if they didn't actually believe it to be true. Considering the cost of what they were doing they would have to be pretty convinced that they had it right.
Percy writes:
You're just repeating your original failed argument. The answer hasn't changed. Many new religions make material sacrifices for spiritual gain. We observe it in real time today. How are Christian origins any different?
You didn’t answer the question. If the first Christians including the disciples were not convinced of the truth of the resurrection of Jesus, then why would they believe that there was anything to be gained by carrying on a mission based on Jesus’ resurrection?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Percy, posted 11-25-2018 11:54 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Percy, posted 11-26-2018 8:39 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1022 of 1677 (844199)
11-26-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1000 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
ringo writes:
The only thing I'm discussing is your cherry-picking of the text. One glaring example is your dismissal of the stories about the Old Testament atrocities as "made up by men" while at the same time swallowing hook, line and sinker the New Testament stories about miracles and resurrection - even though they are just as obviously made up by men. You ignore the text when it doesn't fit your made-up ideas about a sunshine-and-lollipops God.
There are 66 books in the library we call the Bible. There are no doubt hundreds of writers actually involved and the books were written centuries apart. Each writer had his own motivation and source of knowledge. The writers who wrote about the atrocities were in all likelihood responsible to their leaders who could hold the power of death over them. Also, they would want to support the actions of their nation. God told us to do it is easy to say but can be used to justify anything, good or evil, you want it to.
The accounts or resurrection and miracles are confirmed by several authors, and numerous other sources in the Bible, and they are not at all consistent with what the Jews believed about what a messiah was supposed to be or do. I have written in several posts in this thread about why the Gospel accounts would not be something that they would fabricate.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1040 by Percy, posted 11-27-2018 8:22 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1042 by ringo, posted 11-27-2018 10:42 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1023 of 1677 (844201)
11-26-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by GDR
11-26-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Matthew
GDR writes:
Once again you're reading this with a 21st century understanding.
Am I supposed to accept that you're reading it with a 1st century understanding?
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth.
The words say the opposite all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I've said before. All religion is man made. In the case of Christianity it is based on the belief that there is one creator god that is a god of love and that He resurrected Jesus, who embodied His nature perfectly or to put it another way carried God's spiritual DNA. Then we factor in the Bible and how to understand that and so yes, there probably aren't 2 Christians anywhere, (who have put in any time to actually study the whole thing), that will agree on everything.
Well it looks like this god of yours found the least convincing method of communicating his message imaginable.
I didn't say He wasn't a prophet. I am saying that He foretold the future in the same way that you or I might tell the future.
You mean by guessing? You call that prophecy? I can do that.
A prophet is essentially one who puts into words the will and nature of God and then using that wisdom project the likelihood of what that will mean in the future. The future is open and unknowable with certainty, but Jesus could, and we can, forecast future events based on what we do know in the present.
You've demoted you god-man to just any other guy predicting his teams score at the weekend

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 1:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 5:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1024 of 1677 (844202)
11-26-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
ringo writes:
If we had no evidence of magical events, all we could conclude is that there are no entities using magic. We could not conclude that there are no entities capable of using magic.
We couldn't even conclude that no entities were using magic. What if we were being seduced by an evil entity who blinded us to the truth? If some invisible force were to knock you over, are you going to simply sit on the ground awaiting evidence or are you going to react as if you are facing a threat?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by ringo, posted 11-27-2018 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1025 of 1677 (844203)
11-26-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
ringo writes:
Every experience that you have, somebody else has had.
OK, but not everyone has had it. Everyone does not share in the experience until they have had it. Even then, the only people that have had it are a subgroup. It is never everybody.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by ringo, posted 11-27-2018 10:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1026 of 1677 (844204)
11-26-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Percy
11-24-2018 6:28 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Percy writes:
I believe Jesus never existed because of the lack of any evidence that he ever existed.
By this do you mean objective replicable evidence or do you mean personal subjective experience? (which would tentatively qualify as evidence---at least of an unknown event)
Percy writes:
I believe the origin stories of Christianity are false because all religions are false.
Sounds as if you have reached a conclusion. Do you think that this conclusion would interfere with your possible subjective experience? In other words, would you dismiss an event simply because you foreknew that all such events were impossible based on current understanding?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Percy, posted 11-24-2018 6:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Percy, posted 11-27-2018 9:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1027 of 1677 (844205)
11-26-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 986 by Percy
11-24-2018 11:57 AM


Jesus' resurrection
Percy writes:
Jesus wasn't a real person.
I find it hard to believe that you believe that. We have more written about the life of Jesus than we do any other historical figure from around that time and for even many years later.
Percy writes:
Whoever wrote Mark is putting words in his mouth at a time when the destruction of the Temple lay in the past.
Then why wouldn't Mark say that, ‘see’ , Jesus was right, it happened?
Percy writes:
Mark wasn't writing in Jerusalem and wouldn't know how complete the destruction.
C'mon Percy. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and by that time the war had been going on for 4 years. Mark doesn't mention the war, and no matter where he was in the area he would be aware of what had happened to Jerusalem and the Temple in very short order.
Percy writes:
It's pretty obviously a reference to what Jews actually did ("head for the hills") after the destruction of Jerusalem.
I'm sorry, but that is nonsense, however, even saying you're right then it is obvious that Mark was not writing about end times but about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Percy writes:
Yours is just one interpretation of a confusion of information gathered from conflicting sources, but more importantly, this is not a counter to, "How handy to have a martyr, especially one who defeated death, rose to heaven to sit by God." Whatever your goals, whether worldly or heavenly, if your leader is dead then claiming he defeated death and was carried bodily up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God is just making the best of a bad situation.
I'm really sorry to be rude, but that again is ridiculous. Why on earth would any of them want to carry on a movement that is based on the leader being crucified which very clearly says that he is just another failed messianic figure. It would require the collaboration of a huge number of people. There is no benefit either earthly or spiritually for them to do that.
Paercy writes:
But even more importantly, these events never happened. All the different interpreters of these Jesus stories are just arguing over fiction.
That is your unevidenced opinion based on your theological beliefs.
GDR writes:
Nobody after the Maccabees were put to death did anyone suggest that Judas Maccabees was resurrected even though he talked about resurrection. Everyone assumed that it would be resurrection at the end of time. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Gioria was resurrected in 70 AD. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Kokhba was resurrected in 135 AD. All of these guys led revolts that had varying degrees of military success and were put to death by the Romans. They were simply regarded as failed messiahs and then people looked for another messiah to lead them. (The idea pretty much dies out after 135 AD however.)
Percy writes:
Why do you think this helps your case?
I think that it is pretty clear. There were numerous messianic movements within a hundred years or so around the time of Jesus. In each case they were ended by the Romans executing the messianic figures and in most cases whatever followers they could get hold of. Many of these such as the Maccabees, Simon bar Giora and Simon bar Khokhba all had a fair amount of military success. The Maccabees reigned for 100 years. When they were executed by the Romans and nobody suggested that they were still alive in some fashion, let alone that they had been resurrected. When Jesus was crucified, the leaders knew Jesus to be another failed messiah, denied Him and went into hiding not wanting to suffer the same fate. Then, all that changed and it would take something very dramatic. It makes sense to believe that the essential elements of their accounts explains this dramatic turnaround.
Percy writes:
Paul is the founder of Christianity. He had his beliefs, but there's nothing to indicate they formed from evidence, nothing to indicate he observed anything recounted in the gospels, nothing to indicate he was close to any of the apostles, and Acts tells us that Paul and Peter disagreed.
Paul is not the founder of Christianity. Christianity was founded firstly as a Jewish reform movement eventually becoming a separate religion. Luke record this in Acts 11.
quote:
26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
This would be after the epistles, and would have been a way fo distinguishing Jews who were followers of Jesus from other Jews.
Also of course, as you have agreed Paul interacted with Peter and so it is obvious that he would have interacted with all of the remaining disciples. Paul is essentially the first theologian of the new movement and was the primary leader responsible for spreading the belief to the gentiles.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by Percy, posted 11-24-2018 11:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1028 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2018 4:59 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1045 by Percy, posted 11-27-2018 7:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1028 of 1677 (844206)
11-26-2018 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1027 by GDR
11-26-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Jesus' resurrection
quote:
I find it hard to believe that you believe that. We have more written about the life of Jesus than we do any other historical figure from around that time and for even many years later
Not really. We only have detailed accounts of one year in his life (or was it really three?). How does that compare with the writings about Julius Caesar - including his own ?
quote:
I'm sorry, but that is nonsense, however, even saying you're right then it is obvious that Mark was not writing about end times but about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
You obviously don’t understand Jewish thinking. The End times would be the period where the Jews came under attack, but God intervenes and sets them at the head of a new world order. Obviously the period of war - and the siege - would be dangerous and highly unpleasant and fleeing might be advised.
quote:
I'm really sorry to be rude, but that again is ridiculous. Why on earth would any of them want to carry on a movement that is based on the leader being crucified which very clearly says that he is just another failed messianic figure. It would require the collaboration of a huge number of people. There is no benefit either earthly or spiritually for them to do that.
Sure there is. If they were truly committed to the idea of Jesus as Messiah then they would - subconsciously at least - look for ways to hold on to that belief even when it failed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are still active despite the utter failure of their end-times predictions.
They had some sort of sightings of Jesus - maybe mistaken identity, dreams, visions even pareidolia. And that was all it took.
And from Acts 4-5 it seems that the disciples did pretty well out of it for a time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 4:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1030 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 5:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1029 of 1677 (844207)
11-26-2018 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Tangle
11-26-2018 3:54 PM


Re: Matthew
Tangle writes:
Am I supposed to accept that you're reading it with a 1st century understanding?
Actually yes. I have read a great deal of the work of N T Wright who is a first century historian, knowing ancient and Greek Latin and Hebrew, and is considered one of the, if not the, leading New Testament scholar in the world. (That of course is opinion but quoting Newsweek N T Wright is "the world's leading New Testament scholar".)
GDR writes:
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth.
Tangle writes:
The words say the opposite all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The destruction will be the vindication and the confirmation of Christ's anti-revolutionary message and so they will then see and understand the Kingdom message spoken of Daniel 7, a message that is for all nations.
GDR writes:
I didn't say He wasn't a prophet. I am saying that He foretold the future in the same way that you or I might tell the future.
Tangle writes:
You mean by guessing? You call that prophecy? I can do that.
Sure, although it is more than guessing, and more about applying knowledge of a given situation and predicting the future.
Tangle writes:
You've demoted you god-man to just any other guy predicting his teams score at the weekend.
No, as I've said I don't believe that God knows the future specifically. What I will have for lunch next Sunday is an unknown even to God. The future is open.
I believe that Jesus was a man who embodied the spiritual DNA of God the Father to whom He prayed. This same God performed miracles through the man Jesus, that God resurrected Jesus and gave Him dominion over the Kingdom of all nations metaphorically as per Daniel 7.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2018 3:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1031 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2018 5:59 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1030 of 1677 (844208)
11-26-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1028 by PaulK
11-26-2018 4:59 PM


Re: Jesus' resurrection
PaulK writes:
Not really. We only have detailed accounts of one year in his life (or was it really three?)
Hyroglyphx already answered that for you in post 995.
PaulK writes:
How does that compare with the writings about Julius Caesar - including his own ?
What quotes do we have of anything that Caesar said?
PaulK writes:
The End times would be the period where the Jews came under attack, but God intervenes and sets them at the head of a new world order. Obviously the period of war - and the siege - would be dangerous and highly unpleasant and fleeing might be advised.
That is my point. The passages were about the end of the age, (the age being the period of Roman occupation), and not the end of the world. It was an anti-revolutionary message.
PaulK writes:
Sure there is. If they were truly committed to the idea of Jesus as Messiah then they would - subconsciously at least - look for ways to hold on to that belief even when it failed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are still active despite the utter failure of their end-times predictions.
They had some sort of sightings of Jesus - maybe mistaken identity, dreams, visions even pareidolia. And that was all it took.
And from Acts 4-5 it seems that the disciples did pretty well out of it for a time.
I'm sorry but that just doesn't hold water and I've already explained why several times in this thread.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2018 4:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by PaulK, posted 11-27-2018 12:23 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1031 of 1677 (844209)
11-26-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by GDR
11-26-2018 5:16 PM


Re: Matthew
GDR writes:
Actually yes. I have read a great deal of the work of N T Wright who is a first century historian, knowing ancient and Greek Latin and Hebrew, and is considered one of the, if not the, leading New Testament scholar in the world. (That of course is opinion but quoting Newsweek N T Wright is "the world's leading New Testament scholar".)
Fabulous, should I now wheel out my favourite 1st century scholar to contradict him? This is speculation based on a fantasy.
And speaking of fantasy
The destruction will be the vindication and the confirmation of Christ's anti-revolutionary message and so they will then see and understand the Kingdom message spoken of Daniel 7, a message that is for all nations.
You told us that
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth.
But instead the actual words say
quote:
all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
They see the Son of Man coming FROM heaven TO earth.
I quote the words, you tell me that they don't mean what they say beacuse you read a book telling you that despite what the words say, they meant exactly the opposite to a 1st century Jew.
So much for god's universal message.
Sure, although it is more than guessing, and more about applying knowledge of a given situation and predicting the future.
I wonder how many other Christians recognise this totally human god of yours. Jesus the pundit. Place your bets here.
I believe that Jesus was a man who embodied the spiritual DNA of God the Father to whom He prayed. This same God performed miracles through the man Jesus, that God resurrected Jesus and gave Him dominion over the Kingdom of all nations metaphorically as per Daniel 7.
How is what you believe relevant?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1032 of 1677 (844210)
11-26-2018 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by GDR
11-26-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Matthew 24
Once again you're reading this with a 21st century understanding.
So are you, while fooling yourself that what you believe is some 1st century understanding.
Jesus was addressing 1st century Jews.
If Christianity is based upon a real person, there is no evidence it was a 1st century person. Jesus could have been a BC person.
Essentially He is saying that when you see the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that it will be God's judgement on Israel, and that they will then see and understand the enthronement of Jesus, (again Daniel 7) and the establishment of the Kingdom.
Unless by "1st century understanding" you mean a gullible understanding, whoever wrote Mark could only know about the destruction of the Temple after it happened, not before.
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth. I would add that it being about God's judgement does not mean that God punished by intent, but it is as a result of what naturally happens when we try to defeat evil with more evil.
So you believe that Jesus warned his followers (who by 70 AD would have been Christians, not Jews) that the Jewish Temple (which by then would have nothing to do with Christians) would be destroyed because someone (Jews? Christians?) were trying to defeat evil with more evil? What a mess of interpretive nonsense.
Jesus continually talked about not going down the road of violent revolution but about defeating evil with the weapon of love. It is about turning hearts away from evil.
Finally, something we agree about.
Tangle writes:
You, like all others believe what you prefer, it has no effect on the words written, all it does is demonstrate why there are 38,000 formal variants of what Christians believe and billions of individual ones. Because just like the original words, you're all making it up.
I've said before. All religion is man made.
Huh? How is that any different from believing it's all just made up? If you truly believed that we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Tangle writes:
Heresy! Jesus wasn't a prophet! You're kidding right? Jesus has no supernatural knowledge, "he's just a very naughty boy." Oh come on. So he was lying when he said all that stuff, making all those future predictions?
I didn't say He wasn't a prophet. I am saying that He foretold the future in the same way that you or I might tell the future. As a prophet you might say that there will be no Brexit deal and that thousands of jobs will be lost in your country. You would be simply assessing the situation from what you know. Jesus was doing that in forecasting the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple.
You said this earlier in your message, and it's still crazy. Why would Jesus feel the need to inform his followers (who by then would be Christians living in small communities scattered about the Middle East and caring not a whit about the Jewish temple in Jerusalem) of his "forecast" that the Romans would eventually crush the Jewish revolt of 66 AD?
A prophet is essentially one who puts into words the will and nature of God and then using that wisdom project the likelihood of what that will mean in the future. The future is open and unknowable with certainty, but Jesus could, and we can, forecast future events based on what we do know in the present.
So in your view Jesus was just someone with a strong political intuition? Hardly seems like someone worth worshipping or building a religion around. What happened to all the other mumbo jumbo about miracles and resurrection and rising to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God and being part of the trinity and having existed since the beginning of time?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 1:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 7:33 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1033 of 1677 (844211)
11-26-2018 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by Phat
11-26-2018 1:50 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
Percy writes:
There is nothing in your experience or anyone else's indicating magic or the supernatural is real.
Barring confirmation bias, I will agree except to say that a whole helluva lot is unexplainable! To question is fine, but to doubt causes a great degree of cognitive dissonance. I'm not sure I would even want to switch clubs.
The intention isn't to get you or anyone to switch clubs but to understand that the definition of evidence doesn't change just because you're talking about religion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 1:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1034 of 1677 (844213)
11-26-2018 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by Tangle
11-26-2018 5:59 PM


Re: Matthew
Tangle writes:
Fabulous, should I now wheel out my favourite 1st century scholar to contradict him?
OK. Do that. My point is that I am not alone in my interpretations and that there are those who have made this their life's work who would agree with me. BTW, I have read many of those who would disagree in order to come to the conclusions that I have.
Tangle writes:
You told us that
Well yeah, because you keep coming up with the same questions.
Tangle writes:
But instead the actual words say
quote:
all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
They see the Son of Man coming FROM heaven TO earth.
I quote the words, you tell me that they don't mean what they say beacuse you read a book telling you that despite what the words say, they meant exactly the opposite to a 1st century Jew.
So much for god's universal message.
It is a universal message, but it is originally written in the language and understanding of a 1st century Jew. A 1st century Jew would understand it, (as should we in this century) that it is referring to Daniel 7. Once again it is about the coming of Jesus -Jesus coming to the Father, the Ancient of Days. This why He is referring to Himself in this context as the "Son of Man" as opposed to Messiah, Son of God or some other messianic term.
Tangle writes:
I wonder how many other Christians recognize this totally human god of yours. Jesus the pundit. Place your bets here.
Beats me. I am simply working at sorting out what I believe to be true as are all of us who think about this stuff.
I do think that out of the reformation that there was massive support for seeing Jesus as God and as a result the understanding of God also as wholly man was largely put aside.
The church prior to the reformation, where the church essentially was the sole place for the masses to go to understand their faith, was not interested in the historical Jesus as they weren't at all sure what they would find there and might not like the result. I think that we could draw a very close parallel to that church and the the Temple that Jesus rebuked. After the reformation the masses, who finally had access to the Bible in their own language, had no access to historical data. In addition they were primarily interested in establishing Jesus as part of the god-head and weren't really interested in Jesus the man in His historical context anyway.
In the last few decades however, there has been a massive increase in the amount of knowledge of that world, partly through the Dead Sea Scrolls but also through access to the thoughts and ideas of a variety of theologians. This of course has been greatly accelerated by the birth of the internet. It seems to me that were are in a lot of ways we are experiencing a reformation of Christianity that largely takes us back to the Christianity of Paul and the early church.
Tangle writes:
How is what you believe relevant?
I suppose that it's very relevant to this discussion. How are your beliefs relevant?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2018 5:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2018 4:02 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1035 of 1677 (844215)
11-26-2018 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Percy
11-26-2018 6:21 PM


Re: Matthew 24
Percy writes:
So are you, while fooling yourself that what you believe is some 1st century understanding.
I've already explained to Tangle why that isn't the case, which isn't to say that I do it perfectly.
Percy writes:
If Christianity is based upon a real person, there is no evidence it was a 1st century person. Jesus could have been a BC person.
What has that got to do with anything. Zero AD/BC represents somewhat inaccurately the birth of Jesus.
Percy writes:
Unless by "1st century understanding" you mean a gullible understanding, whoever wrote Mark could only know about the destruction of the Temple after it happened, not before.
Well yeah, indicting that the Gospel was written prior to the war.
Percy writes:
So you believe that Jesus warned his followers (who by 70 AD would have been Christians, not Jews) that the Jewish Temple (which by then would have nothing to do with Christians) would be destroyed because someone (Jews? Christians?) were trying to defeat evil with more evil? What a mess of interpretive nonsense.
He was talking to Jews and it was a Jewish message. Jesus was never about starting a new religion but was about reforming the Jewish religion. Ultimately it didn't work out that way.
GDR writes:
Jesus continually talked about not going down the road of violent revolution but about defeating evil with the weapon of love. It is about turning hearts away from evil.
Percy writes:
Finally, something we agree about.
Hooray. This actually gets right to the core of Christianity so it is great that it is something we agree on. In the words of N T Wright, "if you fight evil with evil, evil is bound to win".
Percy writes:
Huh? How is that any different from believing it's all just made up? If you truly believed that we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Christianity is a religion based essentially on the belief of the Biblical narrative that God progressively revealed Himself to the Jews, and then fully revealed His nature, (Word or Logos) in the man Jesus. God then resurrected Him thereby establishing a Jesus Christ led Kingdom and establishing the basis for a renewed creation.
Percy writes:
You said this earlier in your message, and it's still crazy. Why would Jesus feel the need to inform his followers (who by then would be Christians living in small communities scattered about the Middle East and caring not a whit about the Jewish temple in Jerusalem) of his "forecast" that the Romans would eventually crush the Jewish revolt of 66 AD?
This was fundamental to His message. He spoke at great lengths about his anti-revolutionary message. He was warning what would happen in hopes that they would be able either reject the idea of military revolution, and then if unable to do that to escape to the hills. He was a Jew and obviously didn't want to see the death of thousands of His people. Also, He wasn't about destroying the Temple but reforming it.
Percy writes:
So in your view Jesus was just someone with a strong political intuition? Hardly seems like someone worth worshipping or building a religion around. What happened to all the other mumbo jumbo about miracles and resurrection and rising to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God and being part of the trinity and having existed since the beginning of time?
I didn't deny any of that, but in addition He was a prophet who preached a message of the nature of God and how it was and is to affect our lives. I would add that John chap 1 explains the part of Jesus existing from the beginning of time. John tells us that the "Word" or Logos of God existed from before time. He then goes on to say that the "Word" became flesh obviously referring to Jesus. Jesus had a time and place of birth, but then perfectly embodied God's nature, the Word or wisdom of God. Put another way Jesus had The Father's spiritual DNA.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Percy, posted 11-26-2018 6:21 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 7:47 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 11-27-2018 8:54 PM GDR has replied

  
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