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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 378 (844879)
12-07-2018 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
12-04-2018 4:01 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Getting accused of something that has never happened and isn't likely to happen, based only on atheist paranoia or something like that, is a pretty depressing experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2018 4:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 47 of 378 (844880)
12-07-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
12-07-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Getting accused of something that has never happened and isn't likely to happen, based only on atheist paranoia or something like that, is a pretty depressing experience.
It's happening all the time in many parts of the world. People are being murdered for what they call blasphemy. In Pakistan there's been national riots over it.
quote:
Asia Bibi: sentenced to death over a cup of water
Asia Bibi was kept in solitary confinement on death row after being convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan over an argument about a cup of water. Now, after her acquittal eight years later, she is in fear for her life.
Even in the developed world blasphemy laws still exist, Ireland only dropped theirs this year. Stephen Fry was being investigated for blasphemy
quote:
Stephen Fry was interviewed on the RT programme 'The meaning of life' in 2015.
When asked what he would say if he ever confronted god in an afterlife, he said: "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world so full of injustice and pain?"
"The god that created this universe, if it was created by a god, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac, totally selfish."
A member of the public complained to garda (Irish police) about Mr Fry's comments.
Garda subsequently carried out an investigation under the 2009 blasphemy laws, but later dropped the investigation.
Did you notice that - the *2009* blasphemy law!! Luckily. the fundamentalist idiots have finally been outvoted.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 11:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 12-07-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 378 (844881)
12-07-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
12-07-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Tangle writes:
Luckily. the fundamentalist idiots have finally been outvoted.
Let's not be too optimistic about the "finally".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 378 (844882)
12-07-2018 12:14 PM


Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Been reading a book I've had on my PC kindle page for quite a while, The Great Evangelical Disaster Revisited by Peter Glover and finding it to be a strong argument against all the subjectivist ideas about God that are so common at EvC.
Riverrat just more or less bragged about how he doesn't get his ideas about God from the church, Phat says something similar about the Bible: he has his own version of subjectivism though he answers Riverrat that he isn't completely in line with what he'd said. GDR's views are unfolding more and more lately as a clearcut heresy of some sort, sort of reminiscent of Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame I think, though I'm not exactly sure how to label it. Now we've got Percy describing his own belief in God as something that's just in him, that he can't defend objectively, it's just there. And Stile just joined the lineup with a thread proposal about a totally subjective approach to believing in God or not believing according to what feels right or something like that. Who am I forgetting?
All of these listed object to making the Bible the foundation of their belief, aggressively attacking it in some cases. Here God spent millennia inspiring His prophets to give us the truth about Himself and you all ignore it and tear it to shreds. What is the point in having any belief in God at all if you're going to ignore the only source of objective knowledge about Him? Or make up your own interpretations and reject the accumulated wisdom of the Church on what it means?
Never mind, I don't want to hear another bunch of nonsense in answer to this question. I've spent my whole Christian life trying to understand the Bible as the foundation of solid traditional Christian faith, through as many preachers and teachers as I've been able to read over the years, including all the Catechisms and Confessions which aim to condense its truths for us. Why anyone would trust in their own judgment instead of making this sort of effort is beyond me. Truly building your house on the sand it seems to me.
Glover's book mentions Open Theism as a heresy along these subjectivist heretical lines, though "mystical" is his favorite category for these things. His book is presented as a revisiting of the famous book by Francis Schaeffer written back in the 80s, The Great Evangelical Disaster which similarly identified the errors the Church was falling into in his day as "super-spiritual" or mystical. His focus seems to have been mostly on the Charismatic Movement which made personal experience more important than the Bible, which is basically what all these subjectivist movements have in common. Schaeffer identified the watershed between true believers and heretics as those for whom the Bible is foundational and those for whom it isn't, and Glover follows the same way of dividing the orthodox from the heresies.
Glover's book is a strong argument for traditional Bible-believing Christianity against all this subjectivism, which he sees as the cause of the weakness of the Church these days, due partly to God's judgment on us for embracing these heresies and abandoning His word. I recommend the book to all you subjectivists.
(It's only a few bucks but you can only get it for Kindle at Amazon. If you don't have a Kindle you can start a Kindle Cloud Reader page at Amazon, which is what I have. Means you can only read it when you're at the PC.)
Anyway, again, Open Theism denies the scripture too, it's just another subjectivist anti-Bible deception.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 12-07-2018 12:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 12-07-2018 4:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 378 (844883)
12-07-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
12-07-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
As I already pointed out, the only examples you have or ever can or will have of your claim that the idea of heresy always leads to "bad stuff" is Islam and Roman Catholicism. Not sure since when Romanism has been called "fundamentalism" though.
abe(Oh, and this Stephen Fry is a complete idiot).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 378 (844886)
12-07-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:14 PM


Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
Faith writes:
All of these listed object to making the Bible the foundation of their belief...
I do object to making the Bible the foundation of my belief - the Bible is too... immature... for me.
But I don't object to making the Bible the foundation of others' beliefs. In fact, I support and endorse that those who find the Bible to be... profoundly signficant... should definitely make the Bible the foundation of their beliefs.
His focus seems to have been mostly on the Charismatic Movement which made personal experience more important than the Bible, which is basically what all these subjectivist movements have in common. Schaeffer identified the watershed between true believers and heretics as those for whom the Bible is foundational and those for whom it isn't, and Glover follows the same way of dividing the orthodox from the heresies.
I can understand Glover's and Schaeffer's objection to focusing on personal experience.
When you focus on personal experience instead of orthodox teachings, you no longer have any excuse of "trying to understand the mysteries of the Lord" or "attempting to find what Christ really wants." All you have is personal responsibility. Lots and lots of personal responsibility and no excuses of any kind. Most people do try to shy away from such things, it's easier that way.
Glover's book is a strong argument for traditional Bible-believing Christianity against all this subjectivism, which he sees as the cause of the weakness of the Church these days, due partly to God's judgment on us for embracing these heresies and abandoning His word. I recommend the book to all you subjectivists.
It's not really much of an argument at all against what you're calling "subjectivism."
You can't say "God doesn't want you to do this!" to someone who doesn't believe in God... it's not an argument of any sort.
It's like attempting to argue that lollipops are the best candy to an engineer who needs to design a bridge so that it doesn't fall apart and kill anyone.
You may very well be right that lollipops are great... but it's irrelevant to anyone who has more important goals to strive for.
You are right about it causing a weakness of the Church though... and that's really what it seems to be more about. Something to rally the all-ready-believing troops.
"Subjectivism" may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Stile has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 52 of 378 (844889)
12-07-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
As I already pointed out, the only examples you have or ever can or will have of your claim that the idea of heresy always leads to "bad stuff" is Islam and Roman Catholicism.
90 seconds on google...
quote:
For some years after the Reformation, Protestant churches were also known to execute those they considered heretics, including Catholics []
Another example of the persecution of heretics under Protestant rule was the execution of the Boston martyrs in 1659, 1660, and 1661. These executions resulted from the actions of the Anglican Puritans, who at that time wielded political as well as ecclesiastic control in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. At the time, the colony leaders were apparently hoping to achieve their vision of a "purer absolute theocracy" within their colony .[citation needed] As such, they perceived the teachings and practices of the rival Quaker sect as heretical, even to the point where laws were passed and executions were performed with the aim of ridding their colony of such perceived "heresies".[citation needed] It should be noticed that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions generally regard the Puritans themselves as having been heterodox or heretical.
Heresy - Wikipedia
How many examples do you require?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 378 (844890)
12-07-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Stile
12-07-2018 12:43 PM


Re: Subjectivist heresies that are undermining Christianity
When you focus on personal experience instead of orthodox teachings, you no longer have any excuse of "trying to understand the mysteries of the Lord" or "attempting to find what Christ really wants." All you have is personal responsibility. Lots and lots of personal responsibility and no excuses of any kind. Most people do try to shy away from such things, it's easier that way.
I guess you have no idea whatever how bizarrely wrongheaded this notion is. Since I'm on a public computer and have to leave pretty soon I'm not going to try to explain this now, maybe tomorrow. Or maybe not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 12-07-2018 12:43 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 12-07-2018 3:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 378 (844891)
12-07-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
12-07-2018 12:56 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
How many examples do you require?
Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries. The examples you give don't include numbers, for some reason, and were very short-lived as it was soon recognized that it is a violation of Christian faith.
Islam has murdered untold numbers, I don't think anyone knows. Mohammed himself wiped out a whole Jewish town.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 1:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-07-2018 1:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 378 (844892)
12-07-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
12-07-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
abe(Oh, and this Stephen Fry is a complete idiot).
Stephen Fry is a funny and highly intelligent man who also happens to be gay and homosexual, traits that could get him murdered by the state in some countries and prosecuted in even some modern Western ones.
And luckily being thought an idiot by fundamendaist idiots does not yet constitute a criminal offense

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 12:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 56 of 378 (844893)
12-07-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries. The examples you give don't include numbers, for some reason, and were very short-lived as it was soon recognized that it is a violation of Christian faith.
Islam has murdered untold numbers, I don't think anyone knows. Mohammed himself wiped out a whole Jewish town.
Thank you, that's exactly my point.
As soon as religious fundamentalists get in charge they start crying heresy and killing people.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 378 (844894)
12-07-2018 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries.
Argumentum ad body-countum.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 378 (844896)
12-07-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
12-07-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Islam has murdered untold numbers, I don't think anyone knows. Mohammed himself wiped out a whole Jewish town.
Thank you, that's exactly my point.
As soon as religious fundamentalists get in charge they start crying heresy and killing people.
No. The difference is in the ideology itself. Islam preaches killing "infidels" and taking over the world. The Roman Church was not following the Bible but in fact prohibiting people from reading it in their own language during the years they were murdering everybody, and they themselves were teaching pagan superstitions and a distorted understanding of the Bible. That is why the Reformation was needed. So it was not Biblical Christianity that murdered heretics, it was pagan Romanism that murdered heretics and when Protestantism came along and founded itself on the Bible it had an ideology that is strongly against murdering heretics or anybody. That some incidents persisted is just the exception that proves the rule because they were very few and quickly stopped because it was recognized how wrong it is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 1:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 378 (844897)
12-07-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-07-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
Faith writes:
No. The difference is in the ideology itself.
There is no difference. All religious fundamentalists cry herecy and try to remove those that have different ideas one way or another.
The rest is just special pleading.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 12-07-2018 1:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 378 (844899)
12-07-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tangle
12-07-2018 1:35 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heres
That's a lie, and all you've done is assert it. I answered your one puny false example. Give us some evidence for your false accusation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2018 6:07 PM Faith has replied

  
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