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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 106 of 378 (845293)
12-14-2018 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
12-13-2018 7:53 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Oh I get the tribalism thing between human beings, as regards revenge, brutality and general shittiness, which we need to continue to try to eradicate from our world.
But I’m more interested in god ordering the massacre of whole tribes, and how this sits with your characterisation of it as justice rather than murder.
You say it’s about spiritual contamination. But focus for a second on the babies. They didn’t choose to be born. As yet, they have no beliefs or thoughts beyond wanting milk, cuddles and sleep. They haven’t been taught any belief system. They haven’t been spiritually contaminated. They’re just babies. How can it be justice to put swords through them ?
Even if being a member of a tribe somehow contaminates you, they didn’t choose that. They haven’t had the option to leave the tribe as yet. For their murder to be characterised as justice, as an absolute bare minimum they have to have exercised some level of choice. They were never given that choice.
Edited by vimesey, : Typo

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 12-13-2018 7:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 3:42 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 12-15-2018 4:24 PM vimesey has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 107 of 378 (845297)
12-14-2018 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by vimesey
12-14-2018 12:58 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself. The fact that it was reported that God ordered the action seems to mean that someone killed them and blamed God for the action. If God wanted me dead, you would see the coroner pulling up within a day or two.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 12:58 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:10 AM Phat has replied
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 108 of 378 (845298)
12-14-2018 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-14-2018 3:42 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself. The fact that it was reported that God ordered the action seems to mean that someone killed them and blamed God for the action. If God wanted me dead, you would see the coroner pulling up within a day or two.
And yet here it is:
quote:
12 The Lord your God is giving you towns to live in. But suppose you hear something bad about one of those towns. 13 You hear that people who cause trouble have appeared among you. They’ve tried to get the people of their town to do something wrong. They’ve said, Let’s go and worship other gods. But you haven’t known anything about those gods before. 14 So you must ask people some questions. You must check out the matter carefully. If it’s true, an evil thing has really happened among you. It’s something the Lord hates. 15 Then you must certainly kill with your swords everyone who lives in that town. You must destroy it completely. You must wipe out its people and livestock. 16 You must gather all the goods of that town into the middle of the main street. You must burn the town completely. You must burn up everything in it. It’s a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. The town must remain a pile of stones forever. It must never be built again. 17 Don’t keep anything that should be destroyed. Then the Lord will turn away from his great anger. He will show you mercy. He’ll have deep concern for you. He’ll cause there to be many of you. That’s what he promised your people of long ago. He gave his word when he made the promise. 18 The Lord your God will do those things if you obey him. I’m giving you his commands today. And you must obey all of them. You must do what is right in his eyes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 3:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 378 (845299)
12-14-2018 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Tangle
12-14-2018 4:10 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Quite obviously human writing and opinion/belief on what God could would or should do. They are making it up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 110 of 378 (845300)
12-14-2018 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:35 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
Quite obviously human writing
All of the bible is human writing isn't it?
and opinion/belief on what God could would or should do. They are making it up.
I agree they're making it up. As is the rest of the book. But tell me, how much of the bible would remain if everything not actually reported as verbatum God was removed?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:49 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 378 (845301)
12-14-2018 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
12-14-2018 4:47 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
I found a better anwer than my quick response. This from Quora:
Q:How do you explain, in today's ethics, Deuteronomy 13?
A:I'm assuming you are really seeking an answer and not just bringing this forward in an attempt to embarrass people who believe in scripture. I suspect the latter, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt with my answer.
First and most important is to know the context of where this message is delivered. If you haven't read the bible much and if you aren't very familiar with the stories of the Old Testament then this could look like disturbing directives. A lot of times people who seek to discredit the bible will bring texts like this out. The suggestion is usually an attempt to cast these directions in the light of today's society in which really they were never meant for.
Second, some background is in order. Ideally I recommend you go read your bible yourself. Go read from the beginning of Deuteronomy and you'll get what this is all about. For the sake of the readers here and those actually wanting to find the truth I will give a summary.
It's pretty much universally accepted that Deuteronomy was written by Moses around 3,500 years ago. The text in question is part of the narrative of the, "Law of Moses." This is not to be confused with the Decalogue (Ten Commandments).
The Law of Moses consisted of two basic sets of laws, the civil laws and the ritualistic laws. The ritualistic laws referred to all regarding the conduct of the sacrificial system and the conduct of the Levite priests. The civil law is what Deuteronomy 13 is part of. This was written on a scroll by the hand of Moses and kept on the side of the arc of the covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:24-26) All of the Law of Moses was done away with as a result of Jesus death on the cross. Colossians 2:14. Part of the reason these laws were necessary was because Israel demonstrated they were not able to keep the Ten Commandments. They had broken them before Moses had even descended he mountain; you know the story. So God gave them these laws that spelled out everything for them in detail. Reference back to Deuteronomy 31:26 the Law of Moses was called a 'witness against them', because they were idolatrous sinners who could not keep the simple Ten Commandments. Moses knew that after his death Israel would go corrupt and turn to evil, they needed a harsh and detailed law of conduct. (Deuteronomy 31:29)
I should also point out a detail here. Deuteronomy 13:9 does not suggest that you should be killing people on your own, but rather that you, as the witness of the crime, must take an active part in meeting out the punishment. This was done publicly after much deliberation. The purpose of this was to curtail the false accusations based on private grudges and the like. A person would hesitate to lead out in the execution of a person whom he knew to be innocent. So if you accused someone you had to throw the first stone.
So it's important to note that these laws were for a different age and a different people under vastly different circumstances. The nation of Israel, at this time, was made up the descendants of people who had lived in captivity for several generations. The nation that held them captive and the surrounding nations worshipped idols. Most of this idolatry involved things like orgies and human sacrifices, often young children and babies were the offerings. These were not like the religions we have today; these were evil pagan idol worshippers that conducted many atrocities that today would make our stomachs turn. If Israel turned to idolatry they would fall into ruin, that's why the strict laws concerning it. If it was tolerated it would quickly destroy the nation. In the United States there is a death sentence for even so much as planning an attack on the president, other countries have similar laws. Israel was a nation governed by God, to actively seek to bring idolatry into the nation was an attack on the government of Israel and the very fibre of the nation. In other words idolatry was high treason against the nation of Israel. They understood it and should they disagree were free to leave.
Today it's hard to understand because we don't have the hard-core pagans that existed back then and we don't generally view any religion as a threat to our nation. I guarantee you If we did we would be quick to put in many laws outlawing them and even instituting a death penalty as needed. It's not uncommon to institute harsh punishment, even the death penalty, on matters of national security.
See...when I seek answers, I don't simply accept the first thing that pops into my head. I search for different perspectives. This answer seemed logical to me.
Let's use ICANTs 5 rules and add your 6th rule.
1. Who is speaking/writing? --- Consensus says Moses.
2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing?---Looks like the speaker was addressing the Jewish people of that time.
3. What subject is he speaking/writing about? ---Outside threats to the nation.
4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing? -- around 3500 years ago.
5. What is the occasion for speaking or writing? -- Unsure.
6.6. WHY is the person telling me this and why now?---__________________________________ Have an answer?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:47 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 5:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 8:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 117 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2018 9:36 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 378 (845302)
12-14-2018 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
12-14-2018 4:47 AM


Making It Up Or Inspired Writing?
Tangle writes:
But tell me, how much of the bible would remain if everything not actually reported as verbatim God was removed?
Good question. ringo would argue that God is fiction thus nothing could be reported. But we really don't have the mindset of the author, do we? We can't really say what would be written.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:47 AM Tangle has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 113 of 378 (845306)
12-14-2018 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:49 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
So what you're saying is that God changes his views as to what is moral and just, every so often, so as to fit with the changing nature and morality of society ? That has to be the logical conclusion of your extract's thesis, that we have to judge god's command in the context of the times in which it was made.
Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 6:28 AM vimesey has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 378 (845308)
12-14-2018 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by vimesey
12-14-2018 5:31 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
The writing is in context of the speaker and times he was speaking and people he was speaking to. In addition, the text clearly does not suggest that God Himself is speaking.
Today, the law is written on our hearts. We dont hear God speaking...at least most of us don't. What we feel is an inner unction. Feel free to label it how you like.
Scripture may or may not corroborate our impression.
I believe that God speaks to me through my conscience, through others, and through scripture. I dont limit His ability to impress me.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 5:31 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 7:35 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:19 AM Phat has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 115 of 378 (845309)
12-14-2018 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-14-2018 6:28 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
In addition, the text clearly does not suggest that God Himself is speaking.
This suggests that unless there's actual God speach being cited, every other injunction in the Bible has to be taken with a pinch of salt, as being the words of men.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 6:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 116 of 378 (845310)
12-14-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:49 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
So now we have it that when anyone but god is speaking directly we can consider it as men making stuff up. And what is being said is intended for an audience of 1st century Jews - or earlier - and is therefore not for us. Committing genocide was ok then but not now.
So what we have here is an unreliable book that was written for, and to be understood by, stone age people. with moral values that flex over time. Right, so much for the universal word of god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 117 of 378 (845313)
12-14-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:49 AM


Deuteronomy
It's pretty much universally accepted that Deuteronomy was written by Moses around 3,500 years ago. The text in question is part of the narrative of the, "Law of Moses." This is not to be confused with the Decalogue (Ten Commandments).
That’s not true. Bible scholars date the writing of Deuteronomy to the 7th-5th centuries BC.
These questions are not easy unless you are prepared to dig. And to watch out for misinformation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 378 (845324)
12-14-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-13-2018 1:57 PM


Re: All The News That Is Fit To Print
Phat writes:
Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record.
Not true. For example, there is little historical support for the conquest of Canaan. The Israelites made up a fictional war which they won. No war, no victors.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 1:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 119 of 378 (845326)
12-14-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-14-2018 3:42 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself.
That's your "free will" thing shooting you in the foot. What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them? What did they learn by committing their own genocides?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 3:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 120 of 378 (845330)
12-14-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-14-2018 6:28 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
In addition, the text clearly does not suggest that God Himself is speaking.
Same thing when the New Testament talks about Jesus. Why do you dismiss what Moses supposedly made up and then swallow hook, line and sinker what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John claim were "eyewitness" accounts?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 6:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:57 PM ringo has replied

  
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