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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 378 (845360)
12-14-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
12-14-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
I believe that the Torah was inspired.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by vimesey, posted 12-15-2018 12:57 AM Phat has replied
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:13 AM Phat has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 122 of 378 (845370)
12-15-2018 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Inspired by God you mean ?
In other words, the loving and gentle God inspired Moses to order the chosen people to massacre entire tribes, including their babies (who are on any sane standard, utterly innocent of anything) ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:29 AM vimesey has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 123 of 378 (845386)
12-15-2018 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-14-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
I believe that the Torah was inspired.
Then why do you dismiss it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 4:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 378 (845387)
12-15-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
12-15-2018 11:13 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Good question. In my replies, I often play the role of devils advocate. I do this so often that sometimes I have to pause and evaluate what I actually believe. Tangle is off on this same kick that you are where you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today. All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.
Of course if you perceive God as simply a character in the book, it makes sense to read the whole book and note what He says to the people. But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now. Critics claim I pick and choose what is palatable, and I plead guilty. However, I believe that
Heb 4:12-13 writes:
... the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Moreover, my perception and belief is that God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said. Of course, if you believe that God is fiction, what need is there to listen to what He said in the book any more than what you claim I make palatable?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 378 (845389)
12-15-2018 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by vimesey
12-15-2018 12:57 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
You are judging God based on what He allegedly said 3500 years ago. Those people then were as likely as we are now to continue waging war against other nations no matter what their beliefs were. So while I dont strictly believe that the character was made up, I do believe that the ones who wrote down the story would have a different view of that God then they would had they met Jesus Christ.
Look at people now. They judge God based only on what is written of Him. They don't seem to be able to imagine that God exists now...this moment...and that they can commune. So they trash the character in the book instead.
We have no idea today what those people back then thought about life, how they thought about God, and what their habits daily were.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by vimesey, posted 12-15-2018 12:57 AM vimesey has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 378 (845390)
12-15-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
12-15-2018 11:23 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
... you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today.
I certainly do not. I'm asking why YOU take some parts of it literally - e.g. the death and resurrection of Jesus - and throw away the parts you don't like - e.g. God's genocides.
Phat writes:
All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.
That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?
Phat writes:
But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now.
The same applies to Jesus, 2000 years ago. He might well have something different to say to us now. By your logic, He might very well be wearing a Make America Great Again hat when He returns and telling you to sell everything you have to build a wall on the border.
Phat writes:
... God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said.
Again, the same applies to Jesus.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 3:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 378 (845421)
12-15-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by ringo
12-15-2018 11:34 AM


Picking And Choosing Scriptural Meaning
ringo writes:
What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them?
For one thing it would impress upon them that their God was real. Whether this knowledge ultimately humbled them or made them arrogant and entitled can be found by studying the stories.
ringo writes:
What did they learn by committing their own genocides?
They learned that survival was a brutal business and that it was either sink or swim for them. Modern Israelis learned the same lesson in the six-day war.
Phat writes:
All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us.
ringo writes:
That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?
Things That Differ writes:
Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry.
If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible.
The postal employees must "rightly divide" the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail to him.
It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.(...)...we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why...
Getting that out of the way...
ringo writes:
So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?
Last time I asked Him, He said something to the effect of "I AM that I AM." I figured that I would let the question drop at that point. Perhaps He is waiting for you to die so that He can teach you what you did and could have done and given you some pointers before your next assignment. (Hint: The Mormons were right...you will be assigned a new planet that you will get to visit. They will kill you, but God will bring you back. Your only assignment is to deliver a message.)
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : rewrite

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:34 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 378 (845432)
12-15-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by vimesey
12-14-2018 12:58 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
I'm guessing the babies were demon-possessed. That is in fact a consequence of serious sin and idolatry among a people. I think it's happening today too, that a lot of people are demon-possessed these days because of the unchecked sin, in most cases probably misidentified as mental illness of some kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by vimesey, posted 12-14-2018 12:58 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by vimesey, posted 12-16-2018 3:04 AM Faith has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 129 of 378 (845456)
12-16-2018 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
12-15-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
The concept of justice requires more than a guess that someone was possessed by a demon, though, doesn’t it ?
To begin with, justice has at its heart a concept of fairness - that you be punished for a serious transgression that you chose to commit. If you choose to commit a transgression, then justice will deliver punishment. That can’t apply to a baby, because they haven’t committed a serious transgression - nor do they possess yet the mental ability to choose to commit it, or to be aware that it’s seen as a transgression.
And justice also has a requirement for evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. I know you believe in demons, but you can’t evidence them - no-one can. And to be fair, you acknowledge in your post that you’re only guessing.
Characterising Moses’s injunction to enact God’s will by putting swords through babies can’t be called justice. It doesn’t have any of the necessary characteristics of that concept.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 12-15-2018 4:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 12-16-2018 12:05 PM vimesey has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 378 (845469)
12-16-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by vimesey
12-16-2018 3:04 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
The concept of justice requires more than a guess that someone was possessed by a demon, though, doesn’t it ?
I suppose so, but it was my best guess as to why babies were included in the punishment, and since that isn't persuasive the only answer I have is that God ordered it and God cannot do anything that isn't just. End of story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by vimesey, posted 12-16-2018 3:04 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by vimesey, posted 12-17-2018 6:04 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 378 (845487)
12-16-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-15-2018 3:37 PM


Re: Picking And Choosing Scriptural Meaning
Phat writes:
Things That Differ writes:
Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry.
If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible.
The postal employees must "rightly divide" the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail to him.
It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.(...)...we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why...
That's a pretty poor analogy. Are you suggesting that there are private messages in the Bible for different people?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?
Last time I asked Him, He said something to the effect of "I AM that I AM."
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 3:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 378 (845505)
12-16-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:52 PM


Re: Picking And Choosing Scriptural Meaning
ringo writes:
Are you suggesting that there are private messages in the Bible for different people?
Stam seems to make that case, yes.
Stam writes:
The opponents of dispensationalism have often charged us with teaching, for
example, that under the Old Testament men were saved by the works of the law,
whereas today they are saved by grace through faith.
This charge is at least misleading, for no thinking dispensationalist would
teach that the works of the law in themselves could ever save, or even help
save, anyone.
We understand clearly that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). Nor do
we suppose that the works of the ceremonial law had any essential power to
save. We have not forgotten that the Scriptures also teach that "it is not possible
that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Heb. 10:4).
We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as
such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God,
through faith. There could be no other way to be saved.
You may well argue that there is no proof that people have ever been "lost". But that's another argument. Thing That Differ Browse it...he has some scriptural arguments....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 133 of 378 (845509)
12-16-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
12-16-2018 2:25 PM


Re: Picking And Choosing Scriptural Meaning
Phat writes:
Thing That Differ Browse it...he has some scriptural arguments....
Bring 'em here.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 378 (845512)
12-16-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:52 PM


I AM that I AM...Prove It, says ringo
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence?
Think about it. Should He have to?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:39 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 378 (845513)
12-16-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
12-16-2018 2:36 PM


Re: I AM that I AM...Prove It, says ringo
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence?
Think about it. Should He have to?
You think about it. You keep claiming there's a point to God's existence. Why do you when He doesn't?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 3:06 PM ringo has replied

  
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