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Author Topic:   Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found.
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 114 (824860)
12-04-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Aussie
11-22-2017 4:14 PM


Re: Conclusion
What I said was in no way an insult. I have read your posts with great interest for years!

Thanks, I don't feel insulted.

But in the religious arena you DO believe what you want, what you want to be true.

Okay, for some things yes. Some things, no.

I don't believe in God because I want to. I believe in God because He responded and I know something is there.

I don't really know what it was, exactly, so as I try to deduce finer details I do start getting into preference and choice.

But at the root it isn't a choice, it's more of a conclusion.

Every religious person in the modern world is believing what they want, with zero evidence.

I can't agree to that.

Faith is a fancy sounding way of saying "I believe in vastly improbable things without a good reason to."

I dunno - if the believer didn't think they had a good reason to believe it then I don't see why they would.

There has to be some reason for believing particular things - otherwise peoples' beliefs would be unrecognizable chaos - and whether or not that reason is good enough is their call and not your's.

What isn't good enough for you may be good enough for another.

That's why religions have profoundly mutually exclusive articles of faith; because there is no way to validate the veracity of their claims.

That's true.

Religions are simply "People believing whatever they want."

I see what you're saying - maybe it's just a little too nuanced for me.

There's a lot of believing what you want in religion, but it's not just simply that.

And the religious beliefs on Earth are almost as vast as the human imagination. That should be a giant, flashing warning sign.

The data is a noisy mess and it's hard to make sense out of it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Aussie, posted 11-22-2017 4:14 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 145 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 107 of 114 (824870)
12-04-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
12-04-2017 10:47 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
ringo writes:

Your own quote doesn't show that it's wrong.


As Barbour shows, the 17th century English scientists were much MORE religious than their society. Thus they were not simply a reflection of their society. Newton, for example, wrote more on the Bible than on science, even though his scientific output was voluminous.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 12-05-2017 10:58 AM kbertsche has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 108 of 114 (824922)
12-05-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by kbertsche
12-04-2017 1:13 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
kbertsche writes:

As Barbour shows, the 17th century English scientists were much MORE religious than their society.


Your quote doesn't say anything of the kind. It says that a disproportionate number of scientists were Puritans. The others were also, presumably, professing Christians. No doubt the Arab scientists of the time were professing Muslims and the Chinese scientists of the time were professing Taoists, Buddhists, etc. They were all a product of their cultures.

How would you measure "how religious" they were anyway?

Newton writes:

Newton, for example....


Newton, for example, wasn't a Puritan, was he? So your quote doesn't apply to him. Religiously, he was a bit of a nut, so he isn't much of an example.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 12-04-2017 1:13 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by kbertsche, posted 12-05-2017 12:58 PM ringo has responded

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 145 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 109 of 114 (824939)
12-05-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
12-05-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
ringo writes:


Your quote doesn't say anything of the kind. It says that a disproportionate number of scientists were Puritans.


It says that and more. Here’s what Barbour wrote:

“Seven out of ten members of the Royal Society were Puritans--a ratio far out of proportion to the population as a whole; most of the virtuosi were active churchmen, and many of the clergy encouraged or themselves took part in scientific pursuits.“

If you think that this was simply a reflection of society, you must believe that in society at large, most people were ACTIVE churchmen?

I don’t believe this to be the case in 17th century England. I think it is unlikely, even in the most religious societies, that MOST people are ACTIVE churchmen.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 12-05-2017 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 12-06-2017 2:08 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 110 of 114 (825012)
12-06-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by kbertsche
12-05-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
kbertsche writes:

If you think that this was simply a reflection of society, you must believe that in society at large, most people were ACTIVE churchmen?


I asked how you would measure "how religious" somebody was. On what basis do you conclude that the scientists were "more active" than average?

And what bearing does that have on anything anyway?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by kbertsche, posted 12-05-2017 12:58 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1306
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 111 of 114 (825553)
12-16-2017 12:57 AM


Candidia Moss on the "new" James textual discovery.
The news page is still getting new posts.

https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=james+brother+jesus&FO...

The young scholar (who wrote a book documenting the Roman Empire Christians stealing genuine stories of Manicheans who were THE ONES suffering martyrdom under Pagan Rome) wrote for the Daily Beast 5 days ago.

quote:

For much of the sixty years since the First Apocalypse of James was discovered among the Nag Hammadi texts it has been attributed to an ancient group of Christians known to their opponents as the ‘Gnostics.’ According to Christian tradition, Gnostics believed that the material world was created by an inferior and malicious deity, that gnosis (‘knowledge’) would help enlighten Christians to escape this world and return to the real transcendent deity, that suffering and martyrdom should be avoided, and that the body was useless and irrelevant.

Recent scholarship has questioned the accuracy of this caricature and suggested instead that the Gnostics were philosophically inclined Christians who were in many ways identical to their more orthodox counterparts (others have questioned if Gnostics existed at all as an identifiable group and argue that the term is just a polemical invention).

As scholars have begun to re-examine the content of Gnosticism, our impression of the First Apocalypse of James has changed. According to the stereotype, Gnostics are supposed to want to avoid martyrdom. But as Harvard-educated scholar Mikael Haxby showed in his important doctoral thesis, the First Apocalypse of James found in the Codex Tchacos not only discusses martyrdom, it sees it as something to be embraced should the situation arise.

Interestingly the new Greek version, which follows the Codex Tchacos text quite closely, seems to present some more orthodox readings. At one point where the Codex Tchacos reads “holy seed,” the Greek version has “holy spirit.”

Landau told The Daily Beast, “Talk of a holy or divine seed…was common in the second and third centuries among Christians like the author of the First Apocalypse of James who wanted to find ways to emphasize the continuity between God and humanity. But the change to ‘Holy Spirit’ in the Greek fragments suggests that a later scribe wanted to bring the text into conformity with the emerging Trinitarian theology of the day.”


Keep checking the modern scholarship.

Don't be discouraged if only a sliver of modern "Christians" care about the facts.

Just because they don't want to know that the known (to Jerome!) Hebrew Matthew Gospel had Jesus saying at his Last Supper that his sacrifice was to replace all MEAT EATING , doesn't mean it isn't monumentally important.

Ignorance still rules, for sure.

But.

A new discovery could be around the corner, and all could change.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1306
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 112 of 114 (826040)
12-20-2017 11:47 PM


The Monastery in Sinai has the attention of scientific sites (only 22 hour's old
https://scienceblog.com/...-online-international-partnership

quote:

Technology

Lost ancient texts recovered and published online through international partnership

December 20, 2017


Recent articles from AFTER my post.

Found my putting this term into google news:

sinai palimpsests

quote:

About 187 results (0.29 seconds)

Search Results

Story image for sinai palimpsests from UCLA Newsroom

Lost ancient texts recovered and published online through ...

UCLA Newsroom-Dec 19, 2017

The Sinai Palimpsests Project contains 74 palimpsests totaling some 6,800 pages in 10 languages and containing erased layers of writing from the fifth to the 12th centuries. They are accessible to students, scholars and the public at sinaipalimpsests.org. “By revealing these long-hidden materials and ...

UCLA Researchers Help Discover Ancient Greek Mythological And ...
LAWestMedia.com (blog)-Dec 19, 2017
View all

Story image for sinai palimpsests from International Business Times UK

These spectacular ancient texts were lost for centuries, and now ...

International Business Times UK-15 hours ago

Sinai Palimpsests Project. Researchers have discovered a host of previously unknown ancient texts that have remained hidden for centuries in the vaults of Saint Catherine's Monastery in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula. The manuscripts were recovered as part of a project designed to preserve important historical ...

Story image for sinai palimpsests from TIME

Egypt Reopens Ancient Library Holding Thousands of Centuries-Old ...

TIME-Dec 16, 2017

At least 160 of the manuscripts include faint scratches and ink tints beneath more recent writing, according to Kazamias, who believes the palimpsests were ... It's situated at the foot of Mount Sinai, also known as Jebel Musa or Mount Horeb, where Moses is said to have received the Ten Commandments.


There are hopefully more manuscripts that can be looked at than the roughly 100 so far discovered to be palimpsests. (the vast majority in the Sinai library weren't written over)

quote:

Science
| Archaeology

These spectacular ancient texts were lost for centuries, and now they can be viewed online

Writings include previously unknown Greek mythological works and the oldest surviving copy of the gospels in Arabic.

By Aristos Georgiou
December 20, 2017 13:35 GMT

....
Previously unknown texts in the extinct language Christian Palestine Aramaic describing the story of an early Christian martyr were also found, as well as early biblical texts in numerous other languages - including the oldest surviving copy of the gospels in Arabic.

Researchers also found the earliest surviving copies of several Hippocratic medical treatises and a previously unknown mythological poem from ancient Greece which mentions Zeus, Hades, Hera, Hermes and Persephone.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/...hey-can-be-viewed-online-1652320


Hopefully there will be more important discoveries than what was made so far.

This library has the 2nd largest collection of old manuscripts in the world (the Vatican has more).

I don't know if the Vatican manuscripts have write over erasures like the Sinai collection has.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1306
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 113 of 114 (845537)
12-16-2018 9:32 PM


This Jesus Familt Tomb issue has gotten the attention of the top experts.
I just got the 592 page James Charlesworth (ed.) book (with a nice discount) from Amazon for $20.01 shipped (thanks to an 8% Nebraska sales tax, it was a few dollars higher than it should have been).

It just went back up to $37.99 in less than 12 hours (still lower than around $50, when I posted this article).

https://www.amazon.com/...is-Family-Jerusalems/dp/0802867456

Most (almost all) of the contributors don't share the views of Tabor and Simcha Jacobovici .

quote:

Addresses a much-contested archaeological discovery

In 1980 archaeologists unearthed a tomb near Jerusalem that contained a family's ossuaries inscribed with some familiar New Testament names, including Mary, Joseph, and Jesus. In 2007 the Discovery Channel produced and broadcast a documentary called The Lost Tomb of Jesus, raising interest -- and controversy -- among the public and specialists alike. Could this actually be the tomb of Jesus and his family?

In January of 2008 a group of internationally renowned scholars from a broad range of disciplines met in Jerusalem to discuss that very question. Covering the archaeological facts about the discovery, Jewish burial customs during the late Second Temple period, first-century inscriptions, the Talpiot tomb, the James ossuary, the Holy Sepulcher, and more,this volume presents their expert perspectives on a much-publicized topic.

Contributors:Mordechai Aviam, Wolfgang E. Krumbein,
James H. Charlesworth, André Lemaire,
Claude Cohen-Matlofsky, Lee Martin McDonald,
April D. DeConick, Charles Pellegrino,
Casey D. Elledge, Stephen Pfann,
Mark Elliott, Petr Pokorný,
Howard R. Feldman, Jonathan J. Price,
Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Christopher A. Rollston,
Camil Fuchs, Amnon Rosenfeld,
Shimon Gibson, Jane Schaberg,
Rachel Hachlili, Andrew V. Sills,
Eldad Keynan, Mark Spigelman,
Kevin Kilty, James D. Tabor,
Amos Kloner, Konstantinos Th. Zarras,
,
Watch an interview with James H. Charlesworth below:,


The marketplace still has lots of books that are under $20 plus shipping (they tend to go up and down depending on the actual Amazon price).

(one is about $21.99 with free shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/...0802867456/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr

The 2013 Tabor and Jacobovici,The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity, can be gotten for about 25 cents (plus shipping) on the Amazon marketplace.

The initial bombshell book, by Jacobovici, came out in 2007. The discovery was expected to be ignored by the leading experts in the field. It actually has not been. And the 592 page James Charlesworth (ed.) book is proof of that.

I doubt there will be any bombshells, though the finding of the DNA of a Jesus, son of Joseph, broth of James raises hope that the Pantiera (from Germany) DNA can be somehow found (it wont be).

quote:

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera
Jump to Hypothesis concerning a connection to Jesus - Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, ...

Tabor has been researching the issue and has now 16 posts (he promised back in 2016 to keep doing unprecedented research on the German tomb of the Sidonian - Canaanite! - Pantiera)

https://jamestabor.com/?s=pantera

His German tombstone says he was born in 22 BCE and died 40 AD.

The pagan Celsus and the Talmud says Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier Pantiera.

This Pantiera was a Roman soldier.

(However,it was a common name for soldiers, being the word for Panther. Spanish-speaking folks commonly call their dogs, Pantera, if they happen to be black and are assumed to be strong and protective. I know of one "Pantera" guard-dog here in Nebraska)

This whole tomb issue is a really cool discovery.

Just remember that this discovery has touched on several areas of science, and a new scientific technique came about from this controversial tomb find.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1306
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 114 of 114 (845538)
12-16-2018 9:33 PM


This Jesus Family Tomb issue has gotten the attention of the top experts.
I just got the 592 page James Charlesworth (ed.) book (with a nice discount) from Amazon for $20.01 shipped (thanks to an 8% Nebraska sales tax, it was a few dollars higher than it should have been).

It just went back up to $37.99 in less than 12 hours (still lower than around $50, when I posted this article).

https://www.amazon.com/...is-Family-Jerusalems/dp/0802867456

Most (almost all) of the contributors don't share the views of Tabor and Simcha Jacobovici .

quote:

Addresses a much-contested archaeological discovery

In 1980 archaeologists unearthed a tomb near Jerusalem that contained a family's ossuaries inscribed with some familiar New Testament names, including Mary, Joseph, and Jesus. In 2007 the Discovery Channel produced and broadcast a documentary called The Lost Tomb of Jesus, raising interest -- and controversy -- among the public and specialists alike. Could this actually be the tomb of Jesus and his family?

In January of 2008 a group of internationally renowned scholars from a broad range of disciplines met in Jerusalem to discuss that very question. Covering the archaeological facts about the discovery, Jewish burial customs during the late Second Temple period, first-century inscriptions, the Talpiot tomb, the James ossuary, the Holy Sepulcher, and more,this volume presents their expert perspectives on a much-publicized topic.

Contributors:Mordechai Aviam, Wolfgang E. Krumbein,
James H. Charlesworth, André Lemaire,
Claude Cohen-Matlofsky, Lee Martin McDonald,
April D. DeConick, Charles Pellegrino,
Casey D. Elledge, Stephen Pfann,
Mark Elliott, Petr Pokorný,
Howard R. Feldman, Jonathan J. Price,
Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Christopher A. Rollston,
Camil Fuchs, Amnon Rosenfeld,
Shimon Gibson, Jane Schaberg,
Rachel Hachlili, Andrew V. Sills,
Eldad Keynan, Mark Spigelman,
Kevin Kilty, James D. Tabor,
Amos Kloner, Konstantinos Th. Zarras,
,
Watch an interview with James H. Charlesworth below:,


The marketplace still has lots of books that are under $20 plus shipping (they tend to go up and down depending on the actual Amazon price).

(one is about $21.99 with free shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/...0802867456/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr

The 2013 Tabor and Jacobovici,The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity, can be gotten for about 25 cents (plus shipping) on the Amazon marketplace.

The initial bombshell book, by Jacobovici, came out in 2007. The discovery was expected to be ignored by the leading experts in the field. It actually has not been. And the 592 page James Charlesworth (ed.) book is proof of that.

I doubt there will be any bombshells, though the finding of the DNA of a Jesus, son of Joseph, broth of James raises hope that the Pantiera (from Germany) DNA can be somehow found (it wont be).

quote:

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera
Jump to Hypothesis concerning a connection to Jesus - Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, ...

Tabor has been researching the issue and has now 16 posts (he promised back in 2016 to keep doing unprecedented research on the German tomb of the Sidonian - Canaanite! - Pantiera)

https://jamestabor.com/?s=pantera

His German tombstone says he was born in 22 BCE and died 40 AD.

The pagan Celsus and the Talmud says Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier Pantiera.

This Pantiera was a Roman soldier.

(However,it was a common name for soldiers, being the word for Panther. Spanish-speaking folks commonly call their dogs, Pantera, if they happen to be black and are assumed to be strong and protective. I know of one "Pantera" guard-dog here in Nebraska)

This whole tomb issue is a really cool discovery.

Just remember that this discovery has touched on several areas of science, and a new scientific technique came about from this controversial tomb find.

Edited by AdminPhat, : spelling in subtitle


    
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