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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 342 of 887 (845183)
12-13-2018 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Taq
12-12-2018 5:36 PM


Re: No Brexit?
No Brexit is on the table in that the Government has the power to back out of Brexit. Whether Parliament has the will to do that is another matter. But at this stage the alternatives are so awful I wouldn’t rule it out. May’s deal is looking dead. A No Deal Brexit isn’t any more popular. Going back to the drawing board and starting again isn’t much better, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 12-12-2018 5:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 349 of 887 (845211)
12-13-2018 11:16 AM


The stupidity, it BURNS
Nadine Dorries (Brexiteer) on May’s deal.
But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.
The Independent
I will grant that she’s talking about the transition period but that’s still pretty much the way it has to be. If we’re out of the EU we don’t get a say. If we want to keep free trade going we have to follow some EU rules.

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 353 of 887 (845217)
12-13-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by caffeine
12-13-2018 12:59 PM


Re: No Brexit?
The Parliamentary vote won’t be until January, probably as late as May dares make it.
However, if there’s a General Election there will be an extension of the negotiating period. Unless the EU wants to bounce the U.K. into No Deal. And I don’t think that they do.

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 Message 352 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2018 12:59 PM caffeine has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 358 of 887 (845458)
12-16-2018 5:16 AM


Sir Ivan Rogers on Brexit
Transcript
It’s time for the British public, the government and especially the Brexiteers to face reality.
Sir Ivan is a former U.K. representative to the EU

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 360 of 887 (845595)
12-17-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Diomedes
12-17-2018 3:21 PM


Re: Even more Brexit shenanigans
The No Confidence vote May survived was a Party issue. If she lost she would be on her way out as leader of the Tory Party.
If Corbyn has brought a No Confidence vote against the Government, winning would have brought down the government and probably lead to a General Election.
A Parliamentary vote of No Confidence in the Prime Minister, though, is just theatre. It makes a point about just how unpopular May is in Parliament, but that is it.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 362 by caffeine, posted 12-18-2018 3:27 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 361 of 887 (845607)
12-17-2018 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by PaulK
12-17-2018 3:30 PM


Re: Even more Brexit shenanigans
Corbyn’s going ahead with it. Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the Lib Dem’s and the Greens are trying to turn it into a full vote of No Confidence in the government. If they can pull that off, everything is up in the air.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 366 of 887 (845646)
12-18-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by caffeine
12-18-2018 3:27 AM


Re: Even more Brexit shenanigans
To the best of my knowledge it hasn’t been done before - and why would anyone do that when a No Confidence vote can bring down the government instead ? Forcing the governing party to change leaders also seems weird. And ripe for manipulation by malcontents in that party.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 372 of 887 (845662)
12-18-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
12-18-2018 1:22 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
The Tories had their No Confidence vote. May won, they can’t try again for another year. That’s what caffeine was talking about.
Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the opposition wants Parliament to take a vote of No Confidence in the Prime Minister - but not the government. Which is basically there to rub May’s unpopularity in her face without having any other effects. So discontented Tories can vote for it, without having to worry about a General Election.
It’s not going to happen, so it doesn’t matter anyway.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 379 of 887 (845698)
12-18-2018 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by ringo
12-18-2018 7:32 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
Ringo you are still confusing two different votes.
There was the vote held by the Tory party. That was not a Parliamentary vote.
There was the vote proposed by Jeremy Corbyn, which would have been a Parliamentary vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by ringo, posted 12-18-2018 7:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 381 of 887 (845736)
12-19-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
12-19-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
quote:
No I am not. I understand the difference. Your post looked to me like the vote that was taken was a Parliamentary vote.
In the Message 360 which starts with the sentence:
The No Confidence vote May survived was a Party issue.
That then states
If she lost she would be on her way out as leader of the Tory Party.
And which then goes on to talk about the vote that Corbyn was proposing and in the last paragraph:
A Parliamentary vote of No Confidence in the Prime Minister, though, is just theatre...
It seems pretty clear to me that the Parliamentary vote was the one that Corbyn was proposing as leader of the Opposition, not the Party vote that May had already survived.

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 Message 380 by ringo, posted 12-19-2018 2:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 12-19-2018 2:47 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 383 of 887 (845739)
12-19-2018 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by ringo
12-19-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
quote:
Well, it wasn't clear to me.
Then ask yourself why not.
It seems pretty obvious to me that the vote that would have removed May as Prime Minister is not the vote I described as just theatre, to raise just one point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 12-19-2018 2:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by ringo, posted 12-19-2018 3:03 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 385 of 887 (845741)
12-19-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by ringo
12-19-2018 3:03 PM


Re: Canadian "Rules"
And I can’t see how my post can be read your way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by ringo, posted 12-19-2018 3:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 390 of 887 (847015)
01-15-2019 2:46 PM


A Massive defeat for May
May loses by 432 votes to 202 - the biggest Parliamentary defeat for a government in modern times, smashing past the previous worst (a mere 166 votes in 1924)
At least she did better than the single Amendment that was voted on - that went down by 600 votes to 24.

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 4:23 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 392 of 887 (847018)
01-15-2019 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by AZPaul3
01-15-2019 4:23 PM


Re: A Massive defeat for May
The deadline was set in law when Parliament voted for Brexit
Exiting without a deal means that all arrangements with the EU are void - that covers a hell of a lot. Tariffs, entry, flights, data protection....
The Irish border is a border with the EU. Since stoping the free movement of people was one of the reasons for Brexit it would be a bit silly to say it’s OK if people happen to come through Ireland. Likewise movement of goods (what’s the point of tariffs or regulations if importers can just avoid them?)
At this stage the British electorate can only lobby their MPs. If there is a General Election they can have some impact. If there is another referendum they could have more (but I think that a referendum could be easily rigged by the choice of options.). Neither seems that likely - there will be a No Confidence vote tomorrow, but May is expected to win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 4:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Diomedes, posted 01-15-2019 5:23 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 396 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 6:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 395 of 887 (847025)
01-15-2019 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Diomedes
01-15-2019 5:23 PM


Re: A Massive defeat for May
I thought we were already in the Perfect shitStorm. There is no option that won’t piss off a lot of people. Time is running out. May’s credibility is shot. The EU won’t renegotiate without major changes to the offer...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Diomedes, posted 01-15-2019 5:23 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
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