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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 76 of 90 (845946)
12-23-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-23-2018 3:02 AM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Phat writes:

From what I see, everything he is saying is free.


I, for one, have not made up my mind whether ICANT is a smart crook or an honest fool.

(To recap, in case you've forgotten the story: In 1972, with Watergate looming on the horizon, Richard Nixon was re-elected by a landslide, which led one commentator to say that America preferred a smart crook over an honest fool. Since then, if somebody would rather be seen as an honest fool than a smart crook, I take his word for it.)

ICANT seems to want to be seen as an honest fool but I don't discount the opinion of people who think he's a smart crook. He's a poe, really. There's no way of telling whether he actually believes the nonsense that he posts or whether he's just a troll.

As for selling his primitive superstitions, not everything is sold for cash. Maybe he's just trying to fuel his monumental ego.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 3:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 2:30 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:42 PM ringo has responded
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 84 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 5:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 77 of 90 (845948)
12-23-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
12-23-2018 3:40 AM


Re: Why So Many?
Tangle writes:

Because trillions of people have never even heard of your bloody Christ let alone thought the simple-minded story is true!

So what makes you so angry that the story suggests that lots of people won't make it? Why does that bother you? You almost seem more against what you see as the fake news of religion more than the fake news of today's politics. Having a small church and teaching a flock the story is far less harmful than giving the rich 10% a massive tax break, shunning our global alliances, and spending more than we have. The issue is people. Human nature. And why are you almost beside yourself worried that I am a sycophant tio ICANT? He is just another EvC member, after all. I had my beliefs long before I met him. I started a debate with him to learn his perspective. You seem almost jealous over it, as if I am being prevented from embracing your belief in humanity, thinking, and rationality. So lets discuss that.

It's worse than worthless, your pastor's product is revolting and dangerous.
Show me how it shut down the government. Gave a tax break to the wealthy. Took Britain out of Brexit. Show how it fails to feed people. Clothe them. Give them hope and encouragement. Your secular brave new world has its problems too, and your anger is misdirected, yet noted. You and ringo both have contempt for a smalltown Pastor who is no threat to you. Maybe you misidentify your enemy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 3:40 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6519
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 78 of 90 (845949)
12-23-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
ringo writes:

As for selling his primitive superstitions, not everything is sold for cash. Maybe he's just trying to fuel his monumental ego.

Mostly the latter I think though I suppose he gets paid something by his homemade church. I really hope he's not relying on book sales for his pension.

But, as the saying almost goes, there's one born again every minute.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 79 of 90 (845950)
12-23-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
I, for one, have not made up my mind whether ICANT is a smart crook or an honest fool.
I see him as honest. I believe that he has studied the Bible more than most of us, though I will entertain your argument that he does not read it as you do. His claim about you is:
Actually they(you and Tangle) limit Him to the abilities of mankind(...)They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.(...)ringo would not recognize evidence if he stumbled over it.

You have to be looking for evidence before you can find it.

He is right in that you yourself have declared the book a primitive superstition and God as fiction. That is your stated position. No wonder you interpret the book different from the apologists. You lump them all together as having an agenda...smart crooks. I can agree that organized religion has its share. But you seem to throw out the Baby(in the manger) with the bathwater.
ringo, referring to ICANT writes:

As for selling his primitive superstitions, not everything is sold for cash. Maybe he's just trying to fuel his monumental ego.

We all have egos. You and Tangle surely don't argue out of a humble need to provide a public service.

Anyone who takes so much time to explain a book that they themselves see as fiction to a large group of people who interpret it differently has not only an ego but an agenda. The only reason I don't accuse you of having a bad spirit in this is that you do advocate following a good message. Funny, though how you declare that if there were a law regarding mandatory giving, I most certainly would obey it...yet you see that same edict in the book and poke holes in belief.

Essentially, the pastor only accuses you of not looking for evidence for God thoroughly nor honestly enough. So is he honest or smart?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 3:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 80 of 90 (845951)
12-23-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


While Im Ranting at ringo
Oh and another thing stuck in my craw. You have the audacity to call the pastor illiterate. I would never say that about anyone at EvC. Here you tell me to hand out spare change without judging the individual, yet you take it upon yourself to judge a man whom you have never met nor even seen. I know what he looks like, as well as his wife and church. he never told me...I found them. I like to know someone before I judge them. You may find me in the library someday as you are typing on that computer. I may or may not identify myself, after observing your character around others in the real world.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 81 of 90 (845953)
12-23-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
12-23-2018 2:42 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Phat writes:

No wonder you interpret the book different from the apologists.


I don't see why starting from different positions would necessarily result in different conclusions. After all, Faith claims she approached the Bible from the same skeptical position as I do now, yet she reached the same conclusions as the apologists. And in fact, I did originally approach the Bible from a position of belief and I concluded that it was fiction.

Phat writes:

You lump them all together as having an agenda...smart crooks.


Not at all. As I have said, if they prefer to be seen as honest fools, I take their word for it.

Phat writes:

But you seem to throw out the Baby(in the manger) with the bathwater.


You're misusing that idiom. You can't separate the Bible into baby and bathwater.

Phat writes:

Funny, though how you declare that if there were a law regarding mandatory giving, I most certainly would obey it...yet you see that same edict in the book and poke holes in belief.


I can't make any sense of that sentence. I'm the one who has pointed out that message to you in the book and you are the one who rejects it. And the beliefs that I poke holes in are the truly stupid ones, like "dying for our sins".

Phat writes:

Essentially, the pastor only accuses you of not looking for evidence for God thoroughly nor honestly enough.


I couldn't care less what he accuses me of. He has no way of knowing how thoroughly or honestly I have looked.

Phat writes:

So is he honest or smart?


Nope.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 82 of 90 (845955)
12-23-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
12-23-2018 2:50 PM


Re: While Im Ranting at ringo
Phat writes:

You have the audacity to call the pastor illiterate.


And I stand by that assessment. Feel free to argue the point with substance instead of just outrage.

Phat writes:

You may find me in the library someday as you are typing on that computer. I may or may not identify myself...


I know what you look like. You posted a picture of yourself on EvC once.

Phat writes:

... after observing your character around others in the real world.


Go ahead, ask me for spare change.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 83 of 90 (845959)
12-23-2018 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
12-19-2018 1:50 AM


Re: The Good Samaritan Remix
ICANT writes:

Let me address this a little and if you want to discuss it more bring it up in the debate.

There is very little difference between me and Tangle.

We are both sinners.

But there is a difference. Tangle is a lost sinner and I am a saved sinner.

I did not get a glorified body that did not commit sin when I was born again only my spirit was born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption

Neither of us was condemned because we sinned. Mankind was condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Tangle is still condemned because he does not believe in God and therefore has never trusted God to save him from the bondage he was sold into.

I on the other hand believe in God and have trusted Him to save me and give me eternal life. So I received a full pardon and am justified before God. But I am still a sinner. That is a battle I have to fight on a daily basis. I just have to try to get better every day.

This again is the problem with your misguided brand of Christianity. The focus is on you and your personal salvation. You shrink God down into a deity that is saying the you have to give intellectual ascent to Him, say the right prayers and get your theology straight and I'll reward you with eternal life.

Christ's message is to love God by understanding the infinite love He has for all of His created creatures and then reflect that love into the world by loving our neighbours, regardless of race or religion. We are all God's creatures you, me and Tangle. Do that and let God worry about the outcome for our next life.

I spent some time on preparing a response with my posting Message 38 in this thread which you seem to have avoided replying to.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 1:50 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 84 of 90 (845987)
12-24-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
ringo writes:

I, for one, have not made up my mind whether ICANT is a smart crook or an honest fool.

I'd just like to interject here for a minute. Not all of the fundamentalists of ICANT's ilk are from the US. I have encountered them in Canada in many situations and have been in church with them, so I have some experience.

I wouldn't call him either a crook or a fool. I imagine he is like most pastors eking out a living, and he is responding to a form of Christianity which is largely accepted in a church culture that he has been exposed to. Once in that culture it feeds on itself.

My experience has been, that even though IMHO they have their theology badly mixed up they are still people who genuinely believe in prayerfully serve a loving God. My experience is that they fulfill the desires of God as given in my signature quote from Micah 6:8. Although fundamentalists, like everyone else, go off the moral rails, I doubt that they are any more prone to that than anyone else.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2018 6:03 PM GDR has responded
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 12:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6519
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 85 of 90 (845989)
12-24-2018 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by GDR
12-24-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
GDR writes:

I wouldn't call him either a crook or a fool.

He's both. He's fooling himself and trying to fool others.

they are still people who genuinely believe in prayerfully serve a loving God.

They're 16th century throwbacks. They're our unreformed ancestors. We should put ICANT into a museum so we don't take for granted the progress we've made.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 5:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 6:11 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 86 of 90 (845990)
12-24-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
12-24-2018 6:03 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Tangle writes:

He's both. He's fooling himself and trying to fool others.

Maybe, but I believe that he is convinced of what he teaches and that he believes he is serving his community.
Tangle writes:

They're 16th century throwbacks. They're our unreformed ancestors. We should put ICANT into a museum so we don't take for granted the progress we've made.

Actually his brand of fundamentalism is newer that that. Also I 'd add that progress isn't all it's cracked up to be. It has given us modern medicine. and nuclear weapons.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2018 6:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2018 6:29 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6519
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 87 of 90 (845991)
12-24-2018 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by GDR
12-24-2018 6:11 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
GDR writes:

Maybe, but I believe that he is convinced of what he teaches and that he believes he is serving his community.

You believe all sorts of things, I suppose at least one of them might be true. The difficulty is though that his convinced beliefs are bonkers and he's polluting others with them. The psychopath may be convinced he's right but we do our best to protect others from him.

Also I 'd add that progress isn't all it's cracked up to be. It has given us modern medicine. and nuclear weapons.

I doubt there's anybody but a fool would swop their lives now for a life in the 16th century. It was hard, dirty and short.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 6:11 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 6:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 88 of 90 (845992)
12-24-2018 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-24-2018 6:29 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Tangle writes:

I doubt there's anybody but a fool would swop their lives now for a life in the 16th century. It was hard, dirty and short.

Certainly true in our cultures.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2018 6:29 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 89 of 90 (846062)
12-27-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by GDR
12-24-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
GDR writes:

I have encountered them in Canada in many situations and have been in church with them, so I have some experience.


I spent almost half of my life in those churches, so I have some experience too.

GDR writes:

I wouldn't call him either a crook or a fool.


I wouldn't call most fundamentalists either crooked or foolish, in general. Many of them have been fooled by a foolish message, as you have.

I call ICANT a crook and/or a fool because he persists in making the same stupid arguments even after he has been corrected many times. That is either genuine stupidity or genuine dishonesty (or both).

GDR writes:

Although fundamentalists, like everyone else, go off the moral rails, I doubt that they are any more prone to that than anyone else.


I would say the same thing about all Christians.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 5:42 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 90 of 90 (847408)
01-22-2019 11:23 AM


in the Great Debate thread, Phat writes:

Besides, I am testing a theory which says that the more I talk to you, the angrier some of my secular friends will get.


You flatter yourself.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

  
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