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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But chemicals are not made up. They exist objectively. You can make up any first uncaused cause that you like.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Remember that God confirmed what the snake said: Adam and Eve DID become like gods. The idea that creation creates itself is like the idea that ye shall be as gods. But that isn' t what we're talking about here. We're talking about whether an uncaused cause that actually exists makes more sense than a made-up uncaused cause.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can philosophy and belief "make more sense" than reality? Evidentially your chemicals make more sense. Philosophically and belief-wise, not so much.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You're only going back one step farther than I am. Tacking on an unevidenced God doesn't answer the question. Why does God exist?
OK, and what was the process responsible for the emergent properties, and the process for.........back to the big bang which resulted from what process and so on and so on.... GDR writes:
Nope. That doesn't answer the question of why He existed before He created anything. To work through the hearts and minds of His created creatures to steward and serve the creation.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
That still doesn't answer the question. Time isn't really relevant. If you can ask why the chemicals exist, it's just as valid to ask why God exists.
Time is the way we experience change in this life and it is all we know. I understand God to be outside of time as we experience it, and that He is infinite. GDR writes:
But you are the one who's introducing an infinite regression. I'm perfectly willing to stop at chemicals that "just exist". You are the one who wants to put God before the chemicals. I'm just pointing out that that introduces the infinite regression. Where did the God come from? And wherever He came from, where did the "wherever" come from? Etc. ... to my mind it makes a lot more sense than believing in an infinite regression of processes to produce us. If we're going to stop somewhere, we might as well stop at something that actually exists - i.e. chemicals.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
*shrug* Is there a point to all of that?
At the risk of sounding metaphorical, imagine if you were an inventor and created an intelligent robot. The Bot was programmed according to human specs, and once it became "alive" and active it began asking questions. One question it asked was ehy it existed. It then later asked why you existed, IF you existed, and what made you the Creator. The robots entire frame of reference was with itself...it simply could not imagine that you had created it. Phat writes:
If something doesn't exist, why would I care about it?
Why does everything have to be framed as existing or not existing according to your notebook of evidenced elements? Phat writes:
You tell me. You spend more time defining God than I do. Why must humans define Gods personality and parameters?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So, in the analogy, where do theists fit in? According to their own theology, they're made by the same manufacturer as the robots. When they see things that aren't there, is that a bug?
In the robot analogy, the only things that the robot *knows* exist are things programmed into its database, much as scientific evidence becomes real to you via evidence. The robot has no concept of belief, for belief is illogical. Lacking any need for God the way that I do, you patiently wait for programmable evidence. Phat writes:
Nobody does. Believers just believe they do. You have no frame of reference regarding a Being that you pray to or talk with.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So answer the question. When a computer/brain has a memory that doesn't coincide with reality, is that a bug?
The robot has no hard data evidence, but it does have an internal memory of having heard a voice, seen an unexplained event, or had a problem resolved through no interaction with anyone else. Phat writes:
It shouldn't, should it? If your computer "connected the dots" and took you to Porn R Us instead of EvC, would that be a good thing? You'd be telling it, "No! I want to go to EvC!" and it would be saying, "But I really, really, really believe you want to go to Porn R Us."
How, in other words, would the robot connect the dots of multiple subjective experiences and form a hypothesis of a given belief? Phat writes:
Skepticism is the basis of all programming. Programmers take nothing for granted. They have to assume that everthing WILL go wrong and be prepared for that. Nobody wants a computer that goes off on its own subjective tangents. In addition, some robots may be programmed with skepticism based on researching the data of many skeptics.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
But science doesn't regress infinitely. It only goes as far as the evidence goes. If there were any turtles, science would only consider the turtles that it can see. The infinite regression argument can be used to refute either position. The problem I have with your position is not that your belief fills in the gap beyond the visible turtles. The problem I have is that you pretend your position "makes more sense". It doesn't.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Bus drivers are often atheists too. I don't know what point you think you have there.
Which is why logicians often are atheists. Phat writes:
God can be quantified. He corresponds to the amount of Phlogiston in my fridge.
God as a concept is unquantifiable. Phat writes:
It does. The uncaused cause is physics - it eliminates the need to ask about a god that came before. I always thought that defining the regression as an uncaused first cause eliminated the need to ask what came before.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I've told you many times that that isn't true. I don't "deify" human wisdom. It's just that human wisdom is the only wisdom we have - and that includes you. If anything, I' m humanizing your so-called divine wisdom.
You deify human wisdom. Phat writes:
We have the advantage that we actually exist.
You act as if we are better candidates for being creators than God is. Phat writes:
How is that an error? The snake was right. God said so.
Dont you see the error in this thinking process? It gives weight to the scripture (from the snake, mind you) that says we shall be as gods. Phat writes:
I don't need a clever rebuttal for a non sequitur.
Of course you will have a clever rebuttal... Phat writes:
I don't "forget" that; it's made-up nonsense.
You forget that He establishes the parameters of His involvement and responsibility. Phat writes:
Stop trying to psychoanalyze me.
My point is that you won't ever humble yourself to seek to understand Him. Phat writes:
If I have no say in the terms, it isn't a contract. You keep attempting to define the terms of the contract.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Moses was there during the creation? In the Garden of Eden? During the Flood? At the Tower of Babel? At Sodom and Gomorrah? Moses wrote and oversaw the writing of the Torah/Pentateuch and there was no gap of hundreds of years between its events and the writing since he was there during it all.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You point to the creation as evidence for God. You point to the Flood as evidence for God. You claimed that Moses was there for all of the Torah/Pentateuch and I pointed out that you were wrong. We were talking about the miracles that were given as evidence for God.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
How - and more important why - would they have happened without God? I have never pointed to the Creation or to the Flood as evidence for God that I know of.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You're the one who's challenging the autonomy of the Deity by suggesting that He would have trouble handling the "Satan" character. I figured you guys would challenge the autonomy of a Deity.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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