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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1238 of 1677 (846080)
12-27-2018 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1220 by Percy
12-26-2018 5:15 PM


Percy writes:
Put another way, you find discussion difficult with those who don't already accept your claims.
No Percy. It is difficult because I believe that that the resurrection was an historical event. You believe that it wasn’t. The onus then is on me to show that it is historical but we both know that I have no proof and that the only evidence I have is for what is in the Gospels and the Gospels in their historical context, and for the fact that the early Christian church came into existence even after the shameful death of its leader.
You reject that evidence and essentially claim that it didn’t happen because we know it’s impossible and so there has to be some other explanation. That is why I find the discussion difficult.
Percy writes:
If the NT is evidence then so are the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Epic of Gigamesh.
Of course. If something is written with the intent that it be understood to tell a truth, whether it be historical or metaphoric, it is evidence. We make up our own minds in each case.
Percy writes:
You've already been over this ground, the answer hasn't changed, yet you keep saying it without any empirical support.
We sure have and you don’t accept the Gospels and the rise of the early church as evidence. That’s nonsense. I’m not saying that it is conclusive, but it is evidence.
Percy writes:
You're not acting like you want a middle ground. It's more like you have preconditions for what others must first accept. And if they don't accept your preconditions, like that miracles are possible, then they're being unreasonable.
And you reject the possibility of miracles so of course there is no middle ground.
Percy writes:
Liberate them from the Romans, sure, but rebuild the Temple? Before it was destroyed? Not likely.
I’ll give you that. Rebuild would not be the right term. I should say restore the Temple. The Temple was essentially in the hands of the Roman puppets the Herodians, which essentially meant that it was controlled by the Romans. They wanted it restored as had been done in the Hasmonean era
Percy writes:
You're again repeating the story of the dunderheaded apostles, and again without substantiation. It couldn't possibly be the case that you believe repeating something enough times makes it true, so why are you doing this? Anyway, it's not the story of the gospels.
In Matthew 20 the mother of James and John asks Jesus if her sons can sit on His right and left when he commands the kingdom. In Mark 10 James and John come to Him directly with the same request. In Acts 1 after the resurrection they still are asking when Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel.
We can also look at the other messianic movements which all involved overthrowing Roman rule. It was what a messiah was expected to do, however it was accomplished and usually militarily. Apparently Peter was still carrying a sword at the time of Jesus’ arrest. I don’t have a definite opinion on whether Peter believed it would by military means or not.
Percy writes:
You're going over old ground again, repeating a previous and already rebutted claim. The usage in Daniel and the NT differ. From the Son of man (Christianity):
Here is a quote from the wiki site that you linked.
quote:
The expression "the Son of man" appears 81 times in the Koine Greek of the four Gospels: 30 times in Matthew, 14 times in Mark, 25 times in Luke and 12 times in John.[3][8] However, the use of the definite article in "the Son of man" is novel, and before its use in the Canonical gospels, there are no records of its use in any of the surviving Greek documents of antiquity.[3]
In the Christian scriptures, Jesus uses the reference for himself more than Son of God. The attributes given to "the Son of man" in the Christian scriptures seem to correspond with those found in the Book of Daniel of the Hebrew scriptures - Daniel 7:13-14 "As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him. To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed." The New Testament claims, in Revelation, that Jesus will come to earth on the "clouds of heaven," and that he will be given unending dominion and authority. It describes him as the "ruler of the kings of the earth," to be served and worshiped by all nations, people, and language groups.
In the same wiki article another view expressed is that it is a phrase just as it sounds as indicating that one is human. It is partly correct. In Daniel 7 it talks about one LIKE a son of man. In the Gospels though Jesus refers to Himself as THE son of man. He is clearly using that term in reference to Daniel 7. I agree that there isn’t total agreement
Here is another quote from the same link.
quote:
The occurrences of Son of man in the Synoptic gospels are generally categorized into three groups: (i) those that refer to his "coming" (as an exaltation); (ii) those that refer to "suffering" and (iii) those that refer to "now at work" i.e. referring to the earthly life.
The presentation of Son of man in the Gospel of John is somewhat different from the Synoptics: in John 1:51 he is presented as contact with God through "angelic instrumentality", in John 6:26 and 6:53 he provides life through his death, and in John 5:27 he holds the power to judge men.
In all of those understandings of Jesus’ use of the term it is still consistent with the understanding that He is referring to Daniel 7. Fairy tales I believe are true. We both know I don’t have proof. You either believe the Gospels that the.
Percy writes:
I didn't ask for proof. I asked for evidence. If all you got is, "You either believe or you don't," then you got nothin'.
I gave you evidence but you reject it as evidence. The Gospel accounts are evidence. Looking at the historical context including other messianic movements and the rise of the Christian church is evidence which can reject or accept. You may consider it nothing, but it is evidence.
Percy writes:
Say what? If it's all the same God no matter what religion, then of what possible difference could a resurrection make?
It shows that God is validating Jesus’ life and message. It shows us that death, which is the worst that evil can do to us, is not the final word. It establishes life in God’s recreated world. It shows us that in the end there is justice.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by Percy, posted 12-26-2018 5:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1243 by Percy, posted 12-28-2018 8:22 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1239 of 1677 (846100)
12-28-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1218 by Phat
12-26-2018 2:22 PM


Re: There Is No Try
Phat writes:
I am coming to the conclusion that no matter what evidence is available, belief comes down to a basic choice and decision. I can see that for some, confirming information would help...but then it would be an external source making their decision for them. There is no convincing.
Its like Yoda said: There is no try. Do or Do Not.
I agree. Christianity is many things to the many people who call themselves Christian. At its core is the message that our hearts and lives should be in harmony with "The Golden Rule". If that is all it is to any individual, then they are following the precise nature of what God asks of us in my signature, whether they be Christian, any other faith or atheistic.
However, God has given us inquisitive minds and so we want to know more, so theology was born. What was essentially simple has now become complex. Just the same, it is an extremely interesting study.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1218 by Phat, posted 12-26-2018 2:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1240 of 1677 (846101)
12-28-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1219 by Tangle
12-26-2018 3:50 PM


GDR writes:
The progressive revelation in the field of physics has led us to understand the world that is far weirder than we could ever have imagined,
Tangle writes:
We've only just started trying to work this stuff out - just a few generations of scientific effort.
There's an underlying assumption of science that we can eventually understand everything; I'm not at all convinced. I certainly never will, the physics went way past me be I was born.
There are very few people that understand the physics as we know it today. That leaves billions that can't and never will. The human brain must have limits, there's no intrinsic reason why we *should* get to the bottom of it.
Who knows where science will go in the future. It's been the better part of a century since the study of QM began.
I wish I was one of the ones that has something of a grasp of it. I miss cavediver and son guko.
GDR writes:
and in fact far weirder than the idea that Jesus after death was resurrected.
Tangle writes:
That's not weird or difficult, it's just a story. We have an infinite supply of them. We need to explain things; we used to do it through fantasy and storytelling, we now try to work it out objectively. It's a far better method but it will never satisfy those that need simple answers.
It seems that by and large there are few simple answers in the study of theology or science. At least with science you have mathematics and experimentation which can repeated and verified.
With Christianity we could experiment by having people and nations live by the Golden Rule, but so far it hasn't been tried.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1219 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2018 3:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2018 6:11 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1251 of 1677 (846125)
12-29-2018 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Percy
12-28-2018 8:22 PM


GDR writes:
No Percy. It is difficult because I believe that that the resurrection was an historical event. You believe that it wasn’t. The onus then is on me to show that it is historical but we both know that I have no proof......and that the only evidence I have is for what is in the Gospels and the Gospels in their historical context,...
Percy writes:
You keep using the word proof, and I keep nudging you away from it, instead encouraging use of the word evidence. When you say proof do you mean evidence? I'll make that assumption from here on out. The gospels aren't evidence. They're religious myths. When you Christians get it squared away with all the other religions which one's myths are actually true you let us know.
I do know the difference between proof and evidence. The Gospels are evidence as in any book that is written as being non-fiction. The historical context of the NT also adds context and it is evidence. You are free to reject the evidence but to say it isn't evidence is nonsense.
What is in other religious texts is immaterial. I've gone through them and parts of them I agree with, and parts I don't, just as in the Bible. It isn't simply picking out what I like, but it is discerning what I believe to be accurate by the life and message of Jesus. Everyone including you do the same thing even from a deistic or atheistic POV. One thing that different religions agree on is The Golden Rule As you can see in that chart it is fundamental to pretty much every religion. Also, as you can see in the Christian quote it is fundamental to all the law and the prophets, as well as being consistent with my signature which is an OT quote. That is actually the most important thing for religions to agree on, and they do, whether or not their adherents live by it or not.
Percy writes:
How many times are you going to repeat the same argument and ignore the rebuttal? It's still a case of, "Meh on your crucifixion, we've got a resurrection."
Without the resurrection Jesus was a failed messiah who had been tortured, executed and humiliated. There was no reason or motivation to carry on with the movement. The resurrection changed all of that. However, if you know that the resurrection of Jesus was an impossibility then any explanation, regardless of how far fetched is preferable.
Percy writes:
What I've been saying is that it's all made up. Jesus isn't real. He never walked on water. He never fed five thousand with a few baskets of food. He never raised anyone from the dead. He never made the blind see. He was never crucified. He was never resurrected. It's all just stories and mythology that arose around the main character in Paul's invented religion.
I can see where Paul would want to do that as it meant he could live a nice comfortable life mostly being imprisoned and in all probability ultimately being executed.
Paul was essentially the first theologian who worked at sorting out just what Jesus' life and message meant to our lives.
Percy writes:
If you really believe that then why do you care so much that I've made up my mind differently from you. Or are you so desperate to discuss theology that you'll attempt it with someone who doesn't merely have a different slant on things but who rejects all the world's religions?
Look Percy to me it's a discussion. You are just as determined to show that my beliefs are irrational. You seem pretty desperate and determined to convince me and others that I'm wrong. If you want to end the discussion I'm more than happy to comply.
Percy writes:
What is nonsense is that you think the gospels (why do you keep capitalizing "gospels", by the way) and the rise of the early church are evidence. If the rise of the early Christian church is evidence then the early stages of any religion is evidence. All religions had their early stages, and all religions can't be true.
Yes, the rise of any religion is evidence and to evaluate the evidence you can look at how it has evolved, and also examine the evidence in light of the historical context in which it evolved. If anyone is interested enough to do that then they can draw their own subjective conclusions.
Percy writes:
It isn't evidence. That the evidence of all the world's religions is highly contradictory tells us that it is all the fabrication of man's imagination.
Actually I showed you earlier that the Golden Rule is held in common by virtually all current religions. Certainly humans have disregarded it, but it is still a consistent fundamental belief.
Percy writes:
Don't be such a rube. You have no evidence of miracles yet you accept them anyway, plus you reject the miracles of religions that go against your own religious beliefs, such as the revelations of Maroni to Joseph Smith.
If anyone has evidence of miracles then it is a very well kept secret, and there is a tremendous amount of miraculous flim-flam surrounding religions what with all the faith healers and the like. Why do you believe people 2000 years ago were more astute than the highly gullible people of today? How does that make any sense?
I don't think that they were any more astute, or less so for that matter, than they are today. I accept the miraculous as being possible. I don't reject the possibility of miracles that aren't recorded in the Bible. As I believe that at least some of the miraculous accounts in the Bible actually happened I would have no reason to believe that they are the only miracles possible. Frankly, it isn't an issue that concerns me.
Percy writes:
You're mischaracterizing Matthew 20:21. There is no "when" in Zebedee's wife's request. Jesus's kingdom is the kingdom of heaven, and she asks if her sons can sit by Jesus's side in his kingdom.
I have actually done considerable reading on the subject and I am firmly convinced that they saw themselves sitting on Jesus' right and left, in power in Jerusalem. The Kingdom message is that God was establishing His Kingdom, (again as in Daniel 7), in the present and that it is a Kingdom stretching into the next life. It is also consistent with the whole Gospel message.
Percy writes:
I think you're confusing Jewish and Christian concepts of messiahship. Jesus introduced the Christian version, a saver of souls. He was pretty clear about it, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men," and all that.
The Jews had the belief that at some point Yahweh would return and lead them as in the Exodus. They were unsure as to how that would look and they had their plans and schemes to do what they could to bring it about. The most obvious answer was the belief of the Pharisees that if they. (pardon the expression), religiously followed all of the laws, that would do the trick. There was also the belief that came from the latter prophets that there would be a man, anointed by God, who would come and lead them against their enemies.
Jesus tied these two themes together and viewed that it was His God given vocation to embody both of these themes. He was to be the hoped for messiah as well as embodying Yahweh's return to His people.
I don't see the central theme as being about saving souls. The central theme is to establish the Kingdom of all nations of those who followed His message of love, peace, forgiveness etc. A byproduct of that is that when humans take that message into their hearts they are in communion with God, however that plays out in the life beyond this one.
Percy writes:
That's about the only hint (and it's the merest of hints) of anything military in Jesus's ministry, including the apostles.
How about that, we agree on something.
Percy writes:
Hearsay, myths and stories of miracles are not evidence. You are the one who said, "You either believe or you don't." That is not what one says when one has evidence.
No, it is about believing the evidence or not believing it.
GDR writes:
It shows that God is validating Jesus’ life and message. It shows us that death, which is the worst that evil can do to us, is not the final word. It establishes life in God’s recreated world. It shows us that in the end there is justice.
Percy writes:
This makes no sense. If it's all the same God no matter what religion, including religions where Jesus plays no role, then of what possible difference could a resurrection make?
I stand by my quoted statement, however I will add that in the resurrection of Jesus is confirmation that God is a god of love, peace and harmony among all nations, and that the notion of a vindictive military style deity, is false.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Percy, posted 12-28-2018 8:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1259 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 11:43 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1252 of 1677 (846126)
12-29-2018 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1244 by AZPaul3
12-29-2018 6:49 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
I think you and Collins and Polkinghorne were all dropped on your heads real hard into the baptismal bowl. All three of you (should) know that without the most extraordinary quality/quantity of evidence anything so extraordinarily in violation of physics at the most basic level as is religion cannot be said to exist; that "DNA and evolutionary biology as God’s fingerprints in our world," is an article of faith with no meaning let alone any reality.
Somehow, someway, the religious meme, an insidious malicious disease-infested worm, got into the brains of some very intelligent people, probably at a very early age, and proceeded to slowly eat the synapses.
You're a zombie: some brain parts are dead but still able to do calculus.
Hmmm...Interesting. Some how though you seem quite happy to believe that out of who knows what we have within one second from an infinitely small singularity a massive, maybe even infinite universe that by this time was made up of assorted basic particles which themselves were, at least so it appears, dimensionless. Over hundred of thousands of years these particles through who knows how many processes combined to form atoms.
Ultimately these atoms combined and formed compounds, were drawn together by gravity, wherever that came from, to form suns and then planets and so on. Then somehow out of these atoms incredibly complex cellular structures formed and gradually formed living material such as plants and then evolved into humans. Somewhere in that evolutionary process we wound up with creatures that had consciousness with an understanding of self and eventually to an understanding that other selves mattered. There is the anthropic principle. The universe has to be very precisely the way it is to support life. The atheist has to believe that this all happened by chance and/or good fortune.
I would not be able to come even close to coming up with enough faith to believe that. I have no problem with the history of the universe as explained by modern physics but I do have a massive problem with the idea that out of mindless particles we have sentient life with a concept of morality all driven by endless unguided mindless processes.
Frankly I think it takes more than a bang on the head to believe that.
As a side note I find the concept of Dawkin's memes interesting. I find it very compatible with the Christian concept of spreading God's love to all. People are impacted when they experience the sacrificial love of others. The hope is that ultimately that meme of sacrificial love will be spread to all and that we will all be one tribe.
AZPaul3 writes:
Entanglement is a real head scratcher. We don't (yet) understand what is actually happening here. But one idea we can discount is that Jesus is putting the information into his side-saddle then is riding his superluminal donkey clear across the universe to deliver the intrinsic spin to the other particle.
Yet, people tend to treat other areas of our ignorance in a similar religious fashion. Three millennia ago the big ignorance was where did we come from. Well ... god did it, obviously.
That is just so simple and clear a thought. It provides a strong emotional satisfaction. We have an answer that we really don't need to analyse especially since analysis is not possible (so some may think).
My point is simply that things for which we have empirical evidence such as entanglement , cells popping in and out of existence etc, are every bit as strange as the idea of resurrection.
AZPaul3 writes:
Well, energy, in whatever form it may take, is not "nothing." Matter appears to be one of many manifestations of energy, whatever that turns out to be.
Energy however is dimensionless, and if that is what everything is made up of then things again aren't at all what they appear.
AZPaul3 writes:
Except we already know that consciousness is an emergent property of complex biochemistry. It is not fundamental in a physics sense to anything.
Well, that is assumption, not knowledge. I have been interested in the ideas of Penrose and others who suggest that consciousness is basic to our perception of all that is. I think that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle plays into this.
AZPaul3 writes:
You do know that this multidimensional stuff is speculation, right? It is a math hack in models that have yet to show any great viability; intriguing ideas that could help explain a few nagging issues but, so far, nothing of any scientific substance or predictive value. There are no other dimensions there to "believe" in. So believing that Jesus, somewhat particle like, could physically move from another dimension to our own and back again, is a rather silly proposal to make at this point in our experience.
Yes it is speculation but it seems that there is considerable speculation around the issue. In one of my issues of Scientific American it has this headline. "Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter -- An entire universe may be interwoven silently with our own". If we only perceive 4.5% of what exists who knows what else there is about our existence that we don't perceive. Hopefully science will be able to come up with some of the answers but that isn't likely to happen in my life time.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2018 6:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1253 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 12:01 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1254 of 1677 (846131)
12-30-2018 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 12:01 AM


Yes, I agree that there is empirical evidence for all those things. The point is that it all reeks of having an intelligent root cause.
Just take evolution on its own. It is an incredible process that not only has brought about an incredible variety of forms of life, but forms of life involved in creating new life. Does this really sound like a process from mindlessness?
As I said, I can't muster up enough faith to believe that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 12:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by DrJones*, posted 12-30-2018 2:39 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2018 3:57 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1257 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 8:19 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1258 of 1677 (846137)
12-30-2018 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 8:19 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
You think your god has miracles? Amazing what chemistry can do on its own in 4 billion years.
...and just why does that chemistry exist? Why do all these natural processes exist? Is it all blind chance or is there an intelligent root cause?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 8:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1260 by xongsmith, posted 12-30-2018 11:45 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1261 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 11:47 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1266 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 1:45 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1267 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 2:27 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1279 of 1677 (846191)
12-30-2018 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1263 by Percy
12-30-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Ideas About A Refocused Topic
Percy writes:
In my mind this thread has always been about evidence, and since I'm still discussing what constitutes evidence with GDR it still feels like the same thread to me. But I can understand that those focused more specifically on Faith's predicted rapture might see the current discussion as having left the topic, in which case I have no problem with closing the thread. If GDR would like to continue the discussion he could proposed a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. He could include responses to the latest replies to him in the thread proposal.
Hi Percy
I have some time again. I see that Phat has already started a thread in that vein. I have a couple of other naysayers to report to and then I'll go over to Phat's thread.
Thanks again for all the time and effort you have put into this forum
Have a great 2019

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1263 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 1:21 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1280 of 1677 (846193)
12-30-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by Tangle
12-30-2018 3:57 AM


GDR writes:
Just take evolution on its own. It is an incredible process that not only has brought about an incredible variety of forms of life, but forms of life involved in creating new life. Does this really sound like a process from mindlessness?
Tangle writes:
Well we know the process is mindless because we can see it working and know how it works. We can see how unguided the process is by looking at what it produced and how many times it resulted in extinctions. Maybe god intended dinosaurs as his final product but messed up with the comet? Maybe H.sapiens is just another disposable organism on its way to extinction while god's real hope is yet to come?
Yes it can be shown how it works. We can't know if God intervenes in the process or not but I'm fine with the idea that He doesn't and leaves it to function naturally. However, once again you are confusing process with agency. It is no different than observing a robotic assembly line and claiming that the assembly line just exists without being intelligently designed and set in motion.
Tangle writes:
But your real problem is squaring the mechanism of evolution - a blind thug of a process, requiring death, disease, competition between species and life made possible only by consuming other life - with Jesus' message of love and redemption.
Well, to start with that is where faith plays a large role. I do believe in the Biblical message that all this ultimately does get put right in God's renewed universe.
I would add though that a life is a life and if a new species come along replacing a species that has become extinct the that isn't necessarily a bad thing and for that matter we now have species that are more evolved than were the dinosaurs.
Tangle writes:
It seems to me that it's your god that requires redemption for creating such a vile process in the first place. At least in Faith's story man's fall has human choice, in the real world it's your god that fell from grace by torturing his creation and requiring the created to worship its torturer in order for the torture to stop. If we do not, the torture will get infinitely worse..
The world can be a hard and difficult place for many of its inhabitants, but also there is considerable joy. The vast majority are not in a hurry to have it end.
I also believe that God has acknowledged the suffering and has given us as humans the job of being stewards of creation and alleviating the suffering. We can look at all the cases where we have failed in our vocation, but we can also look at advances in medicine; we can look at how quickly nations can respond to help those in the world when there has been a major tragedy; we can look at our soup kitchens; we can look at the aid agencies in the poorer nations and even in wealthier nations; and the list goes on and on.
Yes, God calls us to worship the creator, and we do that by living a life based on the Golden Rule regardless of our religious or non-religious beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2018 3:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2018 4:05 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1281 of 1677 (846194)
12-30-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1257 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 8:19 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
You think your god has miracles? Amazing what chemistry can do on its own in 4 billion years.
Again, you are confusing process with agency. Why do these chemical processes exist? Why do any of the laws of nature exist?
Edited by GDR, : I hadn't realized I'd already answered your post earlier. Sorry

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 8:19 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1282 of 1677 (846195)
12-30-2018 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1267 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 2:27 PM


AZPaul3 writes:
No evidence of any kind of intelligent agency at work but plenty of evidence for natural process so I think the answer is obvious.
There are obviously natural processes at work, but what isn't obvious is why those natural processes exist in the first place.
GDR writes:
and just why does that chemistry exist?
AZPaul3 writes:
Because the materials, forces and processes exist.
Pretty circular reasoning. The processes exist because processes exist. Hmmmmm...

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 2:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 3:14 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1283 of 1677 (846196)
12-30-2018 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1266 by ringo
12-30-2018 1:45 PM


GDR writes:
...and just why does that chemistry exist? Why do all these natural processes exist?
ringo writes:
Emergent properties.
The periodic table represents every possible arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons. Each combination has emergent properties.
OK, and what was the process responsible for the emergent properties, and the process for.........back to the big bang which resulted from what process and so on and so on....
ringo writes:
On the other hand, why does God exist?
To work through the hearts and minds of His created creatures to steward and serve the creation. Yes, that is an article of faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1266 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 1:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1284 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 1:32 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1288 by ringo, posted 12-31-2018 10:44 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1285 of 1677 (846199)
12-31-2018 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Straggler
12-31-2018 1:32 AM


Straggler writes:
Why is there something rather than nothing?
If there is a god (aka the first something) he is asking himself that very question.
Probably correct. I think we're a big disappointment.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 1:32 AM Straggler has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1290 of 1677 (846219)
12-31-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by AZPaul3
12-31-2018 3:14 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
You are trying to impose an agency onto something that doesn't exhibit/need one.
There has to be an agency for life as we know it, whether it be intelligent or not. The laws of physics and the universe as we perceive exist. Why?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 3:14 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2018 3:06 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1295 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 8:12 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1292 of 1677 (846221)
12-31-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by Tangle
12-31-2018 4:05 AM


Tangle writes:
And once again you demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of agency ie it requires an agent. You have no agent - the process does not require one nor does it have one. A random (mindless) process can not, by definition, be guided to produce a defined output. You can not have it both ways. It is either mindless (without agency) or mindful (with agency). Make up your mind.
A process can however be designed with a very high probability that it will produce an outcome that is not narrowly defined. Who says that we have to have 10 fingers and toes. Maybe the process was designed to ultimately produce creatures such as us who are able to love sacrificially, regardless of the particularities of their physical makeup.
Straggler writes:
What a revolting idea - the ends justify the means, no matter how obscene the means. Your god sets up a system of pain, conflict and struggle so that it will be ok in the end? What a vile god you have invented.
Would you rather that you or other life forms didn't exist? The Christian understanding is that the world without the suffering is to come, and for that to happen it seems that this world is necessary as it is for that new world to be born. My best guess is because it requires creatures who have hearts that positively respond to the Golden Rule of sacrificial; love.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2018 4:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2018 3:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
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