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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 8 of 76 (845899)
12-21-2018 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-21-2018 12:28 PM


Stile writes:
If you think a large, obvious difference exists... please use this area to describe it so that others may judge as well.
First let me say that there are many Muslims who subscribe to the "restaint and conciliation" message in the Quran.
One difference that I did notice in comparing the Bible to the Quran is this. In the Bible there is a slow progressive movement away from the violent nature of God in the OT. Just compare the nature of God in the Torah, to His nature in Isaiah to what we see in Jesus.
In the quran it starts out with Mohammed preaching a conciliatory message in regards to how to interact with Christians and Jews. However, as He gains political power and was losing support from the Jews He preached a message that was not very conciliatory.
The point is that the Christian revelation in the Bible becomes more and more peaceful, where as in the Quran it is the other way around.
For both religions we have to choose which end of our Holy Books we want to go by to understand God's nature, and what that means to how we live our lives.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 12:28 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2018 8:58 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2018 3:38 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:31 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 12-30-2018 10:59 AM GDR has replied
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 10:37 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 15 of 76 (846197)
12-30-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
12-30-2018 10:59 AM


GDR writes:
The point is that the Christian revelation in the Bible becomes more and more peaceful, where as in the Quran it is the other way around.
Stile writes:
don't agree or disagree with your point.
I simply find it irrelevant.
I see it as personal nitpicking in order to justify why you think one is "better" than the other in a sense that really doesn't matter.
I say that it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any of the significant points:
Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.
As long as that's true, I don't see any reason to care about anyone's personal interpretation that this or that religion "does it slightly better."
Well I get your point, but it does seem to matter. I believe in a progressive revelation of God in the world. In the Bible we see an understanding of God that moves from one that is often but not always legalistic and vengeful. As we move into Isaiah and other later OT books we move closer and closer to the God that we ultimately see as embodied by Jesus, where we see Him as loving and forgiving almost exclusively.
If however we have a holy book that goes in the direction of caring and then trending to vengeful it can be more of a problem, for those prone to accept the violent view. However I agree that a literal reading of any of these texts can be problematic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 12-30-2018 10:59 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Stile, posted 12-31-2018 11:21 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 17 of 76 (846226)
12-31-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Stile
12-31-2018 11:21 AM


Stile writes:
If your point is that it matters in a greater, overall sense then this is false as long as you cannot provide anything that indicates an issue with one of the objective facts:
Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.
Yes those points are factual. But I don't worship a book. I worship God whose nature and purpose for my life I find in Jesus Christ. I am convinced that the resurrection is historical which subjectively confirms my faith.
When I gradually came to the Christian faith in my 30's I did not have some blinding revelation in some born again experience. I did find that as I read that Christianity kinda made sense of the world and my life. That understanding continued, and when I started understanding Jesus in His 1st century culture that belief became stronger again.
I also notice that there were subtle changes in my life, particularly in how I talked about people and how I related to them. This is pretty much meaningless to anyone else, but it was a big deal for me and has made a big difference in my various relationships.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Stile, posted 12-31-2018 11:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-07-2019 10:59 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 19 of 76 (846491)
01-07-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
01-07-2019 10:59 AM


Hi Stile
It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence. Atheistic principles have been used to promote violence. People who want to commit violence will hang their hat on anything to justify their actions.
Interestingly enough I recently read the book Infidel and was disturbed by the misogyny that seemed so ingrained in her Islamic culture.
I have spent quite a bit of time recently with a Syrian Islamic family of 9 that our church sponsored so that they could emigrate to Canada. First off, they are the only one on the street with a Canadian flag out front. The kids are respectful in a very positive way and they are really happy kids. They laugh really easily and they are always smiling.
The father who is 41 is very respectful of his mother, wife and sister who are all part of the group. He was a mechanic in Syria and my wife's car needed some work so he volunteered to do it. When he had finished I tried to pay him and he refused the money. He said that we had given his children a future.
The contrast between the book and this family is markedly different. The adult male dominated world of the Islamic world as portrayed in the book just does not square in any way with my experience with this family. Canada is so fortunate to have them.
The point again is that if we look for reasons to commit atrocities we will easily find them. I also think in the majority of cases it is more culture driven than anything else and of course religion is part of the culture. For example, I've mentioned in other threads that I see fundamentalist Christianity in the US as being actually a blend of Christianity, nationalism and politics.
So yes, there is violence attributed to the deities in both the Bible and the Quran, but there is also the message of love. Actually, ultimately I suggest that the OT quote that I use for my signature sums the whole thing up nicely.
Sorry, I know this is a very rambling post but hopefully mostly on topic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-07-2019 10:59 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 10:26 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-08-2019 3:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 34 of 76 (846654)
01-09-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stile
01-09-2019 12:06 PM


I thought I'd poke around a little on the subject and came up with this. Can Muslims be Friends With Christians and Jews It is an Islamice site.
It's not that long and an interesting read. The following is the last paragraph from the article.
quote:
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 12:06 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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