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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 255 of 378 (846337)
01-04-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
01-04-2019 9:20 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
I argue that even if you found solid evidence that the resurrection was real, you would still have issues with the God of the Bible and would fight tooth and nail to preserve your intellectual independence. Am I wrong?
If it was proven beyond all doubt that the resurrection and all the parephenalia surrounding it was real, why would I still try to say that it's false? That would be an absurd position to take. I follow evidence wherever it takes me; my atheism isn't a belief, it's a conclusion.
I'd still reject all the baloney in the OT.
But you've changed the point, which was that if the resurrection is not historical, then Christianity fails as a hypothesis.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 9:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 3:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 257 of 378 (846346)
01-04-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
01-04-2019 3:20 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid
Of course the message is valid, it's universal and derivative!
....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value.
Sure it would have the same value as all the others. The problem is that without the supposed resurection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without trace.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 11:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 263 of 378 (846356)
01-05-2019 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
01-04-2019 11:04 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
So why did it not disappear again?
Without Constantine it would have done, it then became a game of power, money and politics. For most of its life the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun toting Pastor.
And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 11:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 5:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 266 of 378 (846360)
01-05-2019 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
01-05-2019 5:52 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die.
I'm sure you will, you seem you need it. But as the generations pass the fundamental beliefs of people like ICANT and Faith will fade out - as they have in more progressive countries - and be replaced by secularism and variants of GDRs 'nice' liberal cuktural Christianity.
The whole story is incredible if true.
Incredible it is.
And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today.
Obviously he doesn't. You can't even explain what that means.
We aren't done arguing quite yet.
For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 5:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 6:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 268 of 378 (846367)
01-05-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
01-05-2019 6:16 AM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached...
Then why say it? Obviously invoking god(s) everytime we don't understand something is just plain dumb.
but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book.
Sigh. No Phat that is not what I say. I say all that the knowledge of *your* god is in *your* book. Others have different books and different gods.
Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist.
Luckily you won't be disappointed either way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 6:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 276 of 378 (846389)
01-05-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
01-05-2019 2:18 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
Perhaps. All I know is that I often pray when a problem seems more than my intellectual and physical capacities can handle. Prayer seems to free my mind of the burden and weight upon my shoulders. Critics may say that using God this way is a "cop-out" and that (as jar used to say) we need to do it ourselves. I won't disagree...but it is my habit to *do it* in Communion with Gods innate wisdom through prayer. (at this point my critics are again rolling their eyes!)
Whatever floats your boat...
And I would say that "No, He is in my heart (and imagination). " There. I said it. I used to be afraid that declaring God to be in my imagination proved that He was limited to such a domain. Lately, however, I have concluded that His wisdom and inner presence is a Holy Communion *within* my mind rather than a simple childish story and fantasy *of* my mind.
Have you worked out yet that you can conclude whatever you like whenever you feel like it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 288 of 378 (846411)
01-05-2019 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
01-05-2019 3:20 PM


Re: Science Goes To Church
Phat writes:
Of course! That's the essence of free will.
Making shit up is the essence of fiction Phat.
You may argue that i'm simply making stuff up...which is a hard one to challenge. Im working on it though!
Given that you did actually make it up, there's nothing much to work on is there? I mean, you can't point to any other source can you? You're talking yourself into something.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 301 of 378 (846438)
01-06-2019 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by GDR
01-05-2019 8:28 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Paul puts it this way in Ephesians 1.
I find it interesting that so much weight is put into what Paul is supposed to have said. The man never even met Jesus yet he's supposed to have all this knowledge of his intentions and message.
He's actually more important than Jesus, without him Christianity wouldn't exist at all. He didn't actually need Jesus to have lived at all to create the story we hear today. Everything he says is hearsay - and/or - invention.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 8:28 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 304 of 378 (846441)
01-06-2019 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-06-2019 7:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
Such hubris! I can see your not having much respect for contemporary apologists---but having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials? What do you do for a living? Sell cars?
Sometimes, people have arguments from ignorance. Other times they have arguments from arrogance. So where do you get your information? At best it is biased opinion based on this whole idea that without "evidence" there is no case for Christianity.
Oh hello, Phat doesn't seem to know anything about Paul.
Do you think he ever met Jesus?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 306 of 378 (846444)
01-06-2019 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
01-06-2019 8:15 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
He claims that Jesus talked to him.
Paul never met Jesus. Below is a chunk of stuff from this site
quote:
Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence."
I thought I'd use information from this evangelical source so that you can at least trust its motives as you doubt mine.
quote:
None of these considerations in any way establish that Paul had seen or heard Jesus personally prior to His atoning death at Calvary. We cannot say for sure whether or not Paul had ever met Jesus.
If you read more balanced accounts you'll get a quite different picture of Paul than the one you appear to have in your head. Do you ever read anything other than theocratic sites, stuff that deals with historicity?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 308 of 378 (846448)
01-06-2019 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Phat
01-06-2019 8:47 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
My assumption was that he had not.
Right so where did all that righteous indignation come from?
Paul never met Jesus, yet the Christian church would not exist without him. Everything real world that he bases his missionary work on is hearsay.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 9:27 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 310 of 378 (846450)
01-06-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-06-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
He met Jesus in Spirit.
So he's reputed to have said. In fact he had many 'visions' one of which had him ascended into heaven. But he never met Jesus or heard him speak anywhere outside his own head. Nothing can be made of that other than he suffered from delusions.
Unlike Jesus though, there's a reasonable amount evidence that he actually existed or at least that someone we call Paul existed and wrote things down. In fact four different individuals wrote what is now attributed to Paul but don't let that bother you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 9:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 324 of 378 (846477)
01-07-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
01-07-2019 12:50 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:
More precisely, the Christian Church would never exist if Jesus had never risen. Nobody would have ever heard of Him. You claim essentially that Paul took up the "myth" and ran with it to spread his own franchise, but that franchise never would have taken off either had the story never happened.
That's nonsense. There are plenty of religions that have developed purely from myth without the slightest chance of their miraculous claims being true - Mormonism is just one in modern times.
All that's required is a story and enough people to propagate it. The fact that the main instigator had never heard any of the stories first hand should ring huge alarm bells. When you then find that 'Paul's writings are by four different people you should be even more alarmed. In fact 'Paul' didn't need Jesus to exist at all let alone be ressurected, all he needed was the stories.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 326 of 378 (846479)
01-07-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Phat
01-07-2019 1:22 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:
Mormons piggybacked on Christianity. Without the Bible, the Book of Mormon never would have stood on its own.
And Christianity piggybacked on Judaism (and Paganism). The New Testament could never have stood on its own
Edited by Tangle, : embarassing spelling....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 1:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 328 of 378 (846482)
01-07-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Phat
01-07-2019 1:30 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:
Judaism was not arguably made up.
Of course it was, they all are. That's why there's so many of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 1:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 1:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
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