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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 76 (845847)
12-21-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-21-2018 12:28 PM


The Bible REPORTS on violent doings in the Old Testament, it does NOT prescribe such things to its readers, entirely the opposite. I'm not sure which of Islam's books tell the reader to kill Jews but it is direct to the reader and that is why they go around blowing people up and shooting into crowds. The Ayatollah Khomeini once chided Muslims for being reluctant to carry out Allah's instructions to kill infidels.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 76 (845856)
12-21-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
12-21-2018 1:10 PM


Christians have been the persecuted ones, first by the Caesars and then by the millions in the Middle Ages under the Roman Church, and except in strange misguided circumstances we do not persecute anyone. Roman Catholicism persecutes BECAUSE IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN. Islam persecutes because its books tell them to, asnd Mohammed went around killing people who would not convert.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 76 (846524)
01-08-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
01-07-2019 3:24 PM


It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence.
Prove it. And for any such use of the Bible, prove that it is justified by the Bible itself, as opposed to Islam's direct commands to the reader. This "seems to me" of yours is utter dangerous nonsense. I'm glad your Syrian family don't seem to be serious followers of islam. But Islam does promote violence in its "holy" books and the Bible does not no matter how you try to twist historical accounts into such an idea.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 76 (846525)
01-08-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


Yes there are Muslims who don't follow the view of jihad as violence against unbelievers, but it is nevertheless in their books to be followed if any should decide they need to become more committed to the traditional understanding which IS violence against "infidels," which was clearly spelled out by Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini as the TRUE meaning of jihad. I'm sure there are many Muslims who don't subscribe to that part of their religion, but again, it's there to be embraced by anyone who wants to. And that is NOT the case with the Bible, any such use of the Bible is wrong, but such a use of Islam's books is not wrong. The Jews also know that their own Hebrew scriptures are HISTORY, and have nothing to do with their relationship with God today.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 76 (846551)
01-08-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
01-08-2019 4:47 PM


The results speak for themselves and are still the same:
Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.
Nobody who can read would use a description of a historical violent event as justification for committing violence now, and you cannot name even a single case even of that. Name ONE "minor group" thatq uses the Bible as you claim, and again, Islam directly commands the reader to kill people, it is not a case of "minor groups" misusing mere descriptive passages. And it is most certainly not a majority who condemn violence in the name of Islam at all because that violence is IN THEIR HOLY BOOKS AS PRESCRIPTIONS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN THE PRESENT. You are making up a bunch of crap. You know nothing at all about thse things. Do you remember the CROWDS in the Middle East CELEBRATING THE ATTACKS ON 9/11? Wake up, you are a dangerous ignoramuc.
And again, Islam, in the Hadiths I believe, not the Koran, SPECIFICALLY COMMANDS THE READER to kill people, and the BIBLE DOES NO SUCH THING. Your "points" are total fabrications.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 76 (846554)
01-08-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-08-2019 5:56 PM


My eyes are getting too bad to do much of this, but here's a long quote from the Koran, not what I was looking for but maybe I can come back leter:
https://marshillapologetics.ca/islamviolence/
The Islamic teaching of 'naskh' or 'abrogation' means that later revelations abrogate or supersede earlier revelations when they are in tension. Qur'an 2:106, 13:39, and 16:101 are relevant passages on this Islamic teaching.
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Qur'an 2:106, Sahih International)
Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book. (Qur'an 13:39, Sahih International)
And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know. (Qur'an 16:101, Sahih International)
Going back to the context of Qur'an 2:106, we see something interesting in ayah 109. It talks about how the 'People of the Scripture' (Jews and Christians) which were trying to dissuade Muslims from believing in Islam. Muslims were told to 'pardon and overlook' the actions of these Jews and Christians 'until Allah delivers His command.' When Allah gives that new command, Muslims would no longer need to pardon and overlook these actions.
Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. (Qur'an 2:109, Sahih International)
In fact, this occurred once Qur'an 9:29 was revealed. At that point, Muslims were explicitly commanded to fight those (1) who do not believe in Allah or the last day, (2) who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful, and (3) who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture. Woah, that abrogates the pardoning and overlooking of Qur'an 2:109. Unless they paid jizyah, they were to be killed
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. (Qur'an 9:29, Sahih International)
In Qur'an 9:5, we see the similar fate of the polytheists. Unless they repented, established prayer, and paid zakah, they were to be killed wherever they where found.
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Qur'an 9:5, Sahih International)
I bring up surah 9, known as Surah At-Tawbat or Surah Al-Bara'ah, because it is clear from Hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129) that it is the last surah chronologically. Therefore, surah 9 contains the final marching orders of Allah and Muhammad.
The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a, and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say: Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs." (4.176) (Sahih al-Bukhari: Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129)
Peace is not what is being promoted here. Offensive violence is what is being promoted here. As per the Islamic teaching of abrogation, a verse can only be superseded by something better. It is clear therefore that Allah and Muhammad view violence as something better than peace.
Though the Islamic conception of Allah would rather punish than pardon and overlook, the Judeo-Christian God is one who pardons all iniquities and covers them. Infinite justice could only be satisfied when the infinite God took it upon Himself on the Cross of Calvary. This God with such as self-sacrificial love does not want any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more. (Hebrews 10:17, NASB)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)
The judgements which the Judeo-Christian God carried out against nations in the Old Testament were warranted, were the result of much patience, and were specific in scope. The wars were against nations that had committed heinous iniquities such as passing children through the fire in sacrifice to gods such as Molech (Leviticus 18:21, Leviticus 18:24-30, Deuteronomy 18:9-11). We see God's patience with how He waited 4 generations or 400 years before carrying out judgement against the Amorites (Genesis 15:13,16). He eventually gave a specific command to the Israelites concerning such nations with further guidance along the way (Deuteronomy 20:17).
Ultimately, we have to understand these judgements, and the judgments in the Mosaic law given specifically for Old Testament Israelites, were commanded by the one who is the objective point of reference for morality. In situations where an individual disagrees with God's judgements, it is important to remember it is futile to think that one's subjective perception of morality supersedes an objective point of reference for morality. In the case of Islam, unlike the Judeo-Christian worldview, the judgements proceed from what is clearly a false religion.
What is in found in the Judeo-Christian texts are in stark contrast to the offensive wars waged by Muhammad against polytheists and Jews and Christians. Various Islamic texts, including the open-ended last marching order found in surah 9, are a legitimate basis for the deadly consequences of Islamism in our world.

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 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2019 5:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 76 (846573)
01-09-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
01-08-2019 8:13 PM


Violence in Bible versus Koran
You're welcome although I'm too obtuse to understand your reference to a "petal." Sounds nice though, so thanks again.
Anyway I was just rereading what I posted and think it makes the distinction between Christianity and Islam clear where so many on this forum keep asserting false equivalences. God in the Bible is shown making very specific assessments of a nation's transgressions, but giving them centuries to repent of them, showing long patience with the transgressors even in the case of the horrific idolatries that sacrifice children, before He brings judgment against them, while the Koran just says in no particular context, but to Muslims in general, that they should kill everyone who doesn't accept Allah. It specifically names Jews, Christians and polytheists, but they aren't going to ignore you atheists I'm sure, and they also kill other Muslims of a different sect.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 76 (846583)
01-09-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
01-09-2019 10:27 AM


I don't care one bit about crazy groups in Uganda or India, they sound like they're on the level of David Koresh or some other cult. They are not Christian except in their own crazy minds. And in both those countries the predominant violence is carried out AGAINST true Christians, by Islam or by the Hindus. The Hindus have stepped up their attacks on the Christians in recent years and and an Indian pastor sends out emails showing Christians lying bloodied or dead in the streets, and one shows a young woman whose clothes have been torn off her running for her life from men who would rape and kill her. So some crazies apparently started a counter violence movement. It's understandable I suppose but not Christian in spirit. We can retaliate in the service of a nation, and should, but in the service of Christian faith we are to die to ourselves and not retaliate.
It is also not Christian to kill abortionists. and I have no idea who the Army of God are.
Your list is just the usual crazy false equivalence. Any violence done in the name of Christianity is a violation of Christian doctrine, but in the name of Islam it is a fulfillment of Islamic doctrine. I guess such distinctions are meaningless to you but they are crucially important if you want to understand what is really going on. And again, DESCRIPTIONS of violent events are your own made up crap. In the Bible they occurred thousands of years in the past through an ancient nation acting as God's arm of judgment, and they have nothing to do with us today. And in the case of Islam it has nothing to do with descriptions, it's just direct commands to murder Jews and Christians and polytheists, they don't even have any historical descriptions, it's all instructions aimed at the reader. Go read the quote I posted above. There are NO such "minor groups" in Christianity that are actually Christian, and the "minor groups" in jIslam are part and parcel of the religion, true followers of their doctrine. I already answered this but you persist in your nonsensical claims. And again the "majority groups" in Islam who denounce the jihadists are violating the treachings of their own books. Even if they sincerely prefer the spiritualizing interpretation of jihad, that is their own madeup interpretation and violates the traditional meaning of the word which means violence against unbelievers inj the service of bringing everyone in the world under subjugation to Allah. You are persisting in making false equivalences after they've been sufficiently answered.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 76 (846627)
01-09-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stile
01-09-2019 12:06 PM


And yet, they still exist.
Yeah, Mormons exist too but that doesn't make them Christians.
With a standard that low no wonder there's no reasoning with you.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 76 (846680)
01-10-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Stile
01-10-2019 9:34 AM


Those are not facts, they are your own made-up fiction. The Koran does not contain a "description" of violence. It advocates it, it does not even have much in the way of historical reports of anything at all. Muslims are directly commanded to kill people, they are not relying on historical reports.
Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible. It takes an illiterate to have such an idea in the first place but I know of no "groups" of that nature.
Islam has no legitimate majority group that opposes violent jihad because that is the traditional understanding of the term and those who oppose it are modern revisionists with no legitimate standing.
Bible believers soundly reject any interpretation of the Old Testament violence as commanded of us today.
Your list is completely false. Those are not facts, there is not one fact in the list, and I have shown how time after time after time. You are completely ignorant of what you are talking about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 76 (846687)
01-10-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Stile
01-10-2019 10:23 AM


What a bunch of blithering blather you just repeat over and over again. Wake up.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 76 (846701)
01-10-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ooh-child
01-10-2019 11:36 AM


Re: Biblical slavery
You may be right about that, I'm not sure, but the Bible context for slavery is either through military conquest or economic necessity, not stealing people to turn into slaves as was done here, and the Mosaic law prescribed humane standards. And this is a different subject anyway.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 76 (846702)
01-10-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Stile
01-10-2019 11:54 AM


Gosh you're stubborn. Those are your own fantasy, they are not facts.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 76 (846718)
01-10-2019 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ooh-child
01-10-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Sorry I meant economic necessity in the sense of having to become a slave to pay off a debt. That was the common reason in ancient Israel and it is not at all the same kind of "economic necessity" you are talking about. There was no violence involved in becoming a slave to pay off a debt they had no other way to pay, and Mosaic Law put term limits to their servitude. Not really comparable to the slavery in the American South. You may be right that they justified it on the basis of the Bible but there is really little actual comparison between the situations.
Slavery caused by military conquest could be called violent, but then the whole thing involving military conquest is violent.
And again this is really a different subject.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 76 (846719)
01-10-2019 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
01-10-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Yes, apparently there was a lot of such misuse of the Bible to justify slavery in the South. But it WAS a misuse. For one thing in the South it wasn't just slavery it was racism which had no part in the circumstances in ancient Israel. For another difference, people were stolen to be slaves in the South, often sold into slavery by their own people, and for yet another the Mosaic Law required the release of the slave after a given period of time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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