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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1158 of 1677 (845025)
12-10-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1157 by Phat
12-10-2018 12:15 PM


Re: Tangles Real World Certainties
Phat writes:
First we have to decide if there ever could be a common imagination.
That's easy, no. Because...We likely would never agree on the characteristics. Our imaginations are scattered and varied. As evidence I offer every god that's ever been created by mnkind.
Do you imagine the possibility of a Higher Intelligence, however? Even if it were simply Aliens?
No, I don't imagine that. If I *did* want that, I'd read science fiction.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1157 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1161 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 4:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1162 of 1677 (845051)
12-11-2018 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1161 by Phat
12-11-2018 4:57 AM


Re: Tangles Real World Certainties
Phat writes:
Too arrogant.
You asked me a question, I answered it. Why is it arrogant?
You have a belief and opinion just as I do.
It seems utterly impossible for those that believe to understand the position of those that don't. Afetr all this time, all these posts you continue to make the same mistakes. How can this be, you're not stupid?
What do you think my 'belief' is? Maybe you can tell me. PLEASE don't say that my belief is not to believe or that I believe in science or some such. Try to get to grip with an absence of belief.
You cannot make such a statement and have it taken seriously.
Apparently not by a believer anyway.
You do not know that belief is science fiction.
Well that's certainly true. But you asked if I imagined Higher Intelligence as aliens. I think you misunderstood my reply - I don't feel the need to imagine higher intelligence period. If I did I'd look to sciencefiction.
Granted you have a sound argument otherwise...until you overextend your intelligence and declare it settled.
All these straw men! It's because you can't put yourself into an atheist's head.
There is nothing settled about whether there's a god or not. There never can be unless he suddenly appears in all his glory etc etc. I simply claim that there is not a scrap of evidence for one and that all the ones we know of are quite obviously human inventions.
I then take one step more and say that I therefore do not believe that there is a god. Just the same as Percy but he goes the other way at the last step. Neither of us can defend the last step.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1161 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 4:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1163 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 7:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1165 of 1677 (845056)
12-11-2018 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1163 by Phat
12-11-2018 7:55 AM


Re: Tangles Real World Certainties
Phat writes:
Absence of Belief) I can't get that in my head.
That is apparent, but that's not the point I'm trying to make to you.
I'm asking you to accept what I'm saying as true to me - and to other non-believers - and stop trying to interpret me - and others -based on your own beliefs. When you do that, you get it all wrong.
Absence of Belief) I can't get that in my head.
But it's (not) in your head about Allah, Vishnu and fairies. That's *exactly* what it's like. It's an absense, it's not even *in* your head at all. It's a non-thing, not a concern, not on any list, just not friggin' there.
It's not a hole filled with something else. It's not a belief in science, rationality or atheism (sic). It's a nothing, a nonentity a nonproblem, it's not a thing in my conciousness.
That's obviously hard for you to get because this god thing seems uppermost in yours, but take it from me, it's not in mine and it seems to make an enormous difference to how you see everything and everybody. You appear to interpret everything through the lens of belief. If you carry on doing that, you'll never understand those that don't believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1163 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 7:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1172 of 1677 (845073)
12-11-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Faith
12-11-2018 2:39 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Faith writes:
I've misinterpreted God's communications before. It happens.
I'd expect a God to be able to give you a message that you wouldn't misinterpret. Particularly as he'd know that you'd misinterpret it. But he is a very mysterious being, bathed in an enigma and surrounded by misinformation.
Recently He seemed to be guiding me to a particulary publication which I don't normally read, for a purpose I misunderstood. Once I figured it out it makes sense.
So long as you've rationalised it, that's fine. Funny how it keeps happening though.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1179 of 1677 (845084)
12-11-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:06 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Faith writes:
Here's how it works.
You just showed us that is doesn't work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1219 of 1677 (846011)
12-26-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1217 by GDR
12-26-2018 9:01 AM


GDR writes:
The progressive revelation in the field of physics has led us to understand the world that is far weirder than we could ever have imagined,
We've only just started trying to work this stuff out - just a few generations of scientific effort.
There's an underlying assumption of science that we can eventually understand everything; I'm not at all convinced. I certainly never will, the physics went way past me be I was born.
There are very few people that understand the physics as we know it today. That leaves billions that can't and never will. The human brain must have limits, there's no intrinsic reason why we *should* get to the bottom of it.
and in fact far weirder than the idea that Jesus after death was resurrected.
That's not weird or difficult, it's just a story. We have an infinite supply of them. We need to explain things; we used to do it through fantasy and storytelling, we now try to work it out objectively. It's a far better method but it will never satisfy those that need simple answers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1217 by GDR, posted 12-26-2018 9:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by GDR, posted 12-28-2018 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1241 of 1677 (846103)
12-28-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1240 by GDR
12-28-2018 5:35 PM


GDR writes:
With Christianity we could experiment by having people and nations live by the Golden Rule, but so far it hasn't been tried.
Our laws are roughly that. It roughly works. But it's not in our nature to be wholly good, evolution saw to that. So we'll always have crime and disease; just hopefully less of it as our secular institutions continue to make progress. Religion had its turn; it failed badly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by GDR, posted 12-28-2018 5:35 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1256 of 1677 (846133)
12-30-2018 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1254 by GDR
12-30-2018 2:25 AM


GDR writes:
Just take evolution on its own. It is an incredible process that not only has brought about an incredible variety of forms of life, but forms of life involved in creating new life. Does this really sound like a process from mindlessness?
Well we know the process is mindless because we can see it working and know how it works. We can see how unguided the process is by looking at what it produced and how many times it resulted in extinctions. Maybe god intended dinosaurs as his final product but messed up with the comet? Maybe H.sapiens is just another disposable organism on its way to extinction while god's real hope is yet to come?
But your real problem is squaring the mechanism of evolution - a blind thug of a process, requiring death, disease, competition between species and life made possible only by consuming other life - with Jesus' message of love and redemption.
It seems to me that it's your god that requires redemption for creating such a vile process in the first place. At least in Faith's story man's fall has human choice, in the real world it's your god that fell from grace by torturing his creation and requiring the created to worship its torturer in order for the torture to stop. If we do not, the torture will get infinitely worse..
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1254 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 2:25 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 7:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1264 of 1677 (846150)
12-30-2018 1:27 PM


I think this thread should remain open until Faith's rapture is evident. I'm betting it's not now going to be 2018.
But maybe 2019? Nah.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1287 of 1677 (846205)
12-31-2018 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by GDR
12-30-2018 7:52 PM


GDR writes:
However, once again you are confusing process with agency. It is no different than observing a robotic assembly line and claiming that the assembly line just exists without being intelligently designed and set in motion.
And once again you demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of agency ie it requires an agent. You have no agent - the process does not require one nor does it have one. A random (mindless) process can not, by definition, be guided to produce a defined output. You can not have it both ways. It is either mindless (without agency) or mindful (with agency). Make up your mind.
Well, to start with that is where faith plays a large role. I do believe in the Biblical message that all this ultimately does get put right in God's renewed universe.
What a revolting idea - the ends justify the means, no matter how obscene the means. Your god sets up a system of pain, conflict and struggle so that it will be ok in the end? What a vile god you have invented.
I would add though that a life is a life and if a new species come along replacing a species that has become extinct the that isn't necessarily a bad thing and for that matter we now have species that are more evolved than were the dinosaurs.
There is no such thing as 'more evolved'. But that is besides the point, the question you're being asked is how can you reconcile a loveing god with such a destructive system? One that requires organisms to kill and consume other organisms simply to stay alive? One that regards organisms as totally dispensable?
The world can be a hard and difficult place for many of its inhabitants,
That's an understatement of enormous proportion.
but also there is considerable joy. The vast majority are not in a hurry to have it end.
Now you've leapt from a cosideration of life on earth generally over all evolved time for all species to the feelings of a species that's only just arrived. Does the strained fact that some humans might feel joy some times pay for the pain and suffering of all the others for all of that time? Why make a system that way? Does it really make sense to you?
I also believe that God has acknowledged the suffering and has given us as humans the job of being stewards of creation and alleviating the suffering.
Wow! God has acknowledged the suffering! Your god created the bloody suffering according to you.
So it's now all our problem? H.sapiens has only been around for 200,000 years and of that it's only been in the last few thousand years that we've developed the means to influence our environment at all. What a totally hopeless argument, a god - a GOD! - want us to sort out HIS mess? is that really the best you can do?
We can look at all the cases where we have failed in our vocation, but we can also look at advances in medicine; we can look at how quickly nations can respond to help those in the world when there has been a major tragedy; we can look at our soup kitchens; we can look at the aid agencies in the poorer nations and even in wealthier nations; and the list goes on and on.
Yeh, we're finally fighting back against the terrible situation we find ourselves in - one that you inexplicably believe your loving god creted for us. This is what Hitchens calls creating us sick and commanding us better. Utter nonsense.
Yes, God calls us to worship the creator, and we do that by living a life based on the Golden Rule regardless of our religious or non-religious beliefs.
Yes, the torturer command that we thank him for the pain he inflicts and not complain about it or he'll make it even worse. Nice guy, this god of yours.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 7:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1294 of 1677 (846227)
12-31-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by GDR
12-31-2018 3:08 PM


GDR writes:
A process can however be designed with a very high probability that it will produce an outcome that is not narrowly defined.
That wouldn't be a random mindless process.
Would you rather that you or other life forms didn't exist?
Is your god so lacking in imagination that he can only produce such an absurdly false choice?
The Christian understanding is that the world without the suffering is to come, and for that to happen it seems that this world is necessary as it is for that new world to be born.
That's plainly ludicrous. It's purely an an excuse for an obvious contradiction that disproves the idea of a loving god.
My best guess is because it requires creatures who have hearts that positively respond to the Golden Rule of sacrificial; love.
Why is it necessary to create a world so full of suffering in orde to produce that? And in any case why do it anyway?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:08 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1307 by frako, posted 01-02-2019 5:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1316 of 1677 (846667)
01-10-2019 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1315 by Phat
01-10-2019 3:38 AM


Phat writes:
I always thought that defining the regression as an uncaused first cause eliminated the need to ask what came before.
That's just a linguistic trick. You can't define away the problem by declaring no problem.
And its sorta silly for humans, existing so late on the scale, to attempt to quantify infinity.
Can you explain why?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 3:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1317 of 1677 (846668)
01-10-2019 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1313 by GDR
01-10-2019 2:18 AM


GDR writes:
It requires process after process after process.
Sure, it's process all the way down.
Where did the first process come from?
We'll let you know when we find out for sure, but at the moment it's probable that it popped into existence without the need for one.
One thing is certain though, if and when we do have the answer, neither you nor I will understand it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by GDR, posted 01-10-2019 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1325 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 2:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1327 of 1677 (846738)
01-11-2019 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1325 by GDR
01-11-2019 2:28 AM


GDR writes:
Do you think that we will ever find out what caused it to pop?
It needn't have a cause. That's the point.
Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.
"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."
Stephen Hawking
That's not something you or I can understand because we're steeped in a world of cause and effect. But that's what some physicists think.
In my case that's a given.
In all but a very, very few cases it's a given. I bet there's no more than a handful of people that will be able to reasonably claim the ability to understand it - if indeed an answer is ever found. Far easier to believe goddidit.
quote:
According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning, there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and finally, man.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1325 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 2:28 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 1:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1329 of 1677 (846770)
01-11-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by GDR
01-11-2019 1:39 PM


GDR writes:
Spontaneous creation sounds almost fundamentalist.
Just sounds like more hard and impossible physics to me. You either accept the experts ideas or forget all about it. For example, it seems proven that universe is expanding. But the universe is all there is, so what is it expanding into? I'm not looking for an answer; there is an answer but it's incomprehensile.
I don't see it as a matter of needing to invoke God, I'm simply saying that the world as we perceive it leads IMHO, to believing that an intelligent consciousness is a more likely reason for our existence than a long stream of endless processes back to a a mindless spontaneous creation.
Uh? You just invoked god...
What are you going to do if/when it's shown that it did actually spontaneously pop up? Or in the other hypothesis, that it has always existed?
It will be another Darwin moment.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 1:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 2:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
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