Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

You're still overthinking. I asked you to do ONE thing that would take a minimum of time and involve no risk to you.And remember that the whole scenario is an analogy for God. If YOU are obligated to do the right thing, why not God, who does supposedly have the power to do all things at all times for all men?

I'm rereading an orthodox classic that shows how the church has been compromised by the rejection of Bible inerrancy and accommodation to the world on history and science, and calls us back to inerrancy. This is Francis Schaeffer's The Great Evangelical Disaster written in 1984. Perhaps you feel you understand this perspective already, or maybe you've even read the book, but if not I'd recommend it as antidote to the heretics like Bart Ehrman. Unfortunately what Shaeffer was warning about has only become much worse since then.

See if this link works for you. Remember my story about me and my 3 friends? This is one of them now...his first sermon.
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Heard a couple minutes of him preaching. What's the point though? You say nothing about the book I mentioned.

Based on what? A bunch of young guys coming back late from a church gathering staging this thing? For whom? Phat's report shows no such nonsense. I was alone in my apartment at night. Who would be throwing the voice? And why? I was silently praying, the chipmunky voice commented on that fact. You'd have to imagine a ventriloquist following me around and hanging around outside my place, a duplex I was living in years after the event mentioned above. I'd have heard footsteps outside. Again it was at night and I was praying. The voice mentioned a woman all the churches were already praying for, a popular Christian woman who was discovered to have cancer while pregnant with her fifth child. The voice simply said her name. Your theory is just impossible. This was a voice from another realm, not from a ventriloquist standing outside.Yes I was alone in both cases. I would have mentioned the presence of anyone else.I'm guessing that the voices wouldn't have been audible to anyone else, but I have no way of knowing.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I ordered two books on Amazon, in the tradition of looking at both sides of an issue. I read a lot of stuff...and I read as much pro as I do the con. My church friends like Mike, who by the way feeds the homeless and gives out spare change...what little he himself has...tell me to quit wasting my time reading what they call doctrines of demons. I reply that I can't help it...it is my nature to question rather than ignore. I would never make a good witness for believers and church folk, but I think that God may someday want me to reach the ones who are unimpressed by scripture. I am learning both sides of the debate...mainly by listening to my educated critical and skeptical online friends here. I told Mike that had I not experienced some of the things(like our experience) that I did I likely would doubt that God was real and that my belief was sound. As is, I question it and am unafraid to do so...I simply must hear the counter-arguments. Were it not for the fact that I made a very adult decision to ask Jesus into my heart, and were it not for the events such as hearing the voices so clearly, audibly, and feeling my hair stand on end back in 1995 (or so) coupled with a few other subjective experiences which impressed upon me the reality of Gods involvement, I likely would be another one of EvCs former Christians who once believed but now do not. I pray often but have had more than a few periods where I no longer did so.The two books I ordered in the mail are
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Ehrman, and Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" by Timothy Paul JonesI may not buy every orthodox teaching hook line and sinker, but I don't buy many of the counter-arguments either. I will likely get around to reading Schaeffer one of these days...I have ten days to recover from my eye operation and have nothing but time. I don't know if I will be able to read though. Audiobooks may be one solution.

Maybe I was not paying attention. Did not hear about this.Nothing too serious I hope. You got any ocular ninja proteins?Here have some.

Remember our EvC member Raphael? (One of the ninja turtles) He became a Pastor. I always liked discussions with him...he was so polite. Thanks for the proteins, by the way. I need healthy food in between my attempts at fasting to lower my sugars.

It's SO hard for me to get out of here for good. I really want to, I have other things I want to do with my time. But there's always something I want to come back and respond to. Because of course you yourself are "unimpressed with scripture." You've said this and so much else that puts you at odds with orthodox traditional Christianity, and members of your own church challenge you on it frequently, as you've told us many times. Therefore, what I keep thinking is that your church should put you through an official disciplinary procedure in which they lay down the principles of the faith that you disbelieve and challenge, ask you to repent and then excommunicate you when you don't. Churches really should not keep people in their congregations who reject any part of the doctrinal truths they stand by, because it is extremely important to keep "the unity of the faith" and that means holding to the same doctrines as a body, which include Bible inerrancy in any truly orthodox church. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Here you go world. Behold the very reasons religions are poison.A man is searching for answers only his own conscience can fulfill.And the intolerant religionist's advice to that searching soul is this:Stand trial in your church for your questions of conscience. If they should find what they consider to be error in your questioning (as they should with ANY man of just conscience and principle) then, so says the totalitarian religionist, they should threaten you, kick you in the ass and out the door.My advice would be different:Do, indeed, seek to challenge your church. If they should threaten you with any kind of censure then you should leave on your own accord. Leave that church behind. They are not worthy of your intellect.Continue searching. Continue reading. Continue exploring, questioning, arguing with yourself and others until you find the home you seek or die trying.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Phat does not present himself as at all open to the tenet of Biblical inerrancy. If he's searching it's gone on a very long time and he's very aware of the different positions on the subject. He's rejected the traditional view in pretty certain terms. Disciplinary procedures would give opportunity to consider the various positions very carefully and come to a clear conclusion.He has clearly stated that he disagrees with the many people in his church, including the pastor, who have many times told him he is in the wrong. But they don't do anything about it. He's reported many instances of their attempts to set him straight, which he refuses to accept. He's had plenty of time for any searching. He understands the position of the church. It sounds like they are a traditional church but it's possible they aren't since their overall views haven't been stated. But if they are then they are in the wrong not to discipline him and come to a clear decision about his position of disagreement with them. Christianity is a body of knowledge. If you don't believe in important elements of the faith then you shouldn't continue in a fellowship with people who do.I know of three disciplinary procedures in two churches. In two of them the person repented and stayed, one repenting of adultery and being reconciled to his wife, and the other I'm not as clear about but I think it was the person accepting some kind of treatment for drug addiction or something like that. In another case the woman left before the public part of the disciplinary procedure came up, after private sessions with the elders in which she refused to repent.These were personal sins, not disagreements with doctrine, but a really strong objection to doctrine such as Phat expresses should be treated similarly. He is at odds with the church's confessional faith held by many others as he has quoted them, and even the pastor. This can only make for chaos in a church. Sure he's welcome to go on searching as he desires... somewhere else.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Absolutely right.It's interesting isn't it. One of the key tenets of that particular brand of faith is that God gave man free will. And here they are, looking to stamp it out.Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.

Ha, that's funny - Christianity is a body of dogma not knowledge.Nothing more than club rules. But it is a body were doubt is ok - at least the more normal ones. You extreem cultists have your own silly rules, so I agree, he really needs to find a less stupid cult to belong to.

true. If Jesus were but another man in History Christianity would be nothing more than talk. As Jesus Himself asked Peter...Who do You say that I am? So my ongoing question is whether Christianity is about what we do (as jar maintained) or about who Jesus is and through that confession what we are empowered to then do.. GDR argues that is about Christ and not the Bible....but can the two be seperated? You (tangle) may argue that the issue is really about what we humans do in reality rather than through cultish dogma....so it all becomes a question of whether God exists and is the source of our empowerment. Christians believe in Jesus for that reason...in that you can have a relationship with a man rather than a cloud or a universe or an empty belief. Does that make any sense? I type on my android as a blizzard rages outside and we get ready for my 8am retinal vitrectomy to save my left eye. I cant afford to embrace fantasy...i need real assurance.

Yes it is a body of dogma, which is a body of knowledge, in the case of Christianity, facts and principles given by the revelation of the Bible. The knowledge can be refined, but it can't be contradicted.