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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1561 of 1575 (847397)
01-22-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1557 by vimesey
01-22-2019 4:20 AM


A body of knowledge or dogma has nothing to do with free will. Truth is truth. Free will applies to personal choices of many kinds but not the right to argue with the body of knowledge revealed by God. If you have a different opinion then you don't belong with those who subscribe to the particular body of knowledge, you belong with others who agree with you..

I'm sure you'd all agree that you can't change an established scientific theory to suit yourself, so why should you think a person could change an established revelation from God to suit oneself? If Jesus rose from the dead according to the body of dogma or knowledge, and you think he didn't, you belong somewhere other than the church that affirms that he rose from the dead. Same if the church affirms Biblical inerrancy and you don't. You don't belong in that church.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1557 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2019 4:20 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1562 by ringo, posted 01-22-2019 10:48 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1567 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 11:48 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1562 of 1575 (847398)
01-22-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1561 by Faith
01-22-2019 10:40 AM


Faith writes:

...why should you think a person could change an established revelation from God to suit oneself?


Not to suit oneself, to suit reality. If the "established" revelation doesn't match reality, then the revelation has been misinterpreted.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1561 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1563 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:50 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1563 of 1575 (847400)
01-22-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1562 by ringo
01-22-2019 10:48 AM


Well it's you who are defining the "reality" and if it disagrees with the church's established Confession of Faith which is a definition of reality also, then you don't belong in that church. It is a Confession of Faith that spells out the dogma or body of knowledge for an entire denomination. If you don't like it go start your own denomination.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1562 by ringo, posted 01-22-2019 10:48 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1564 by ringo, posted 01-22-2019 11:03 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1564 of 1575 (847403)
01-22-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1563 by Faith
01-22-2019 10:50 AM


Faith writes:

Well it's you who are defining the "reality"...


It's objective observation that defines reality.

Faith writes:

... if it disagrees with the church's established Confession of Faith which is a definition of reality also, then you don't belong in that church.


Each church can not have its own definition of reality.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1563 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1565 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 11:07 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1565 of 1575 (847404)
01-22-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1564 by ringo
01-22-2019 11:03 AM


It's you defining the "objective observation" and traditional Christians find your definition to be false. Sure we can have our own definition of reality. The only question is which one is really the definition of reality. I accept a certain definition handed down through history. You are free to disagree but you have to start your own denomination since you disagree with the traditional understanding. I'll stick to mine, you are welcome to yours. Enjoy.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1564 by ringo, posted 01-22-2019 11:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1566 by ringo, posted 01-22-2019 11:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1566 of 1575 (847406)
01-22-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1565 by Faith
01-22-2019 11:07 AM


Faith writes:

It's you defining the "objective observation" and traditional Christians find your definition to be false.


They're wrong.

Faith writes:

You are free to disagree but you have to start your own denomination since you disagree with the traditional understanding.


On the contrary, any denomination can accept objective reality and reject superstition. Even your cult could do that. Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists all accept objective reality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1565 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 11:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14645
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1567 of 1575 (847410)
01-22-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1561 by Faith
01-22-2019 10:40 AM


quote:

I'm sure you'd all agree that you can't change an established scientific theory to suit yourself, so why should you think a person could change an established revelation from God to suit oneself

Thats funny since you feel free to change the Bible to suit yourself.

Its also funny since science doesnt require you to believe even established theories. You cant pretend it says something other than it does, but you can disagree with it.

quote:

If Jesus rose from the dead according to the body of dogma or knowledge, and you think he didn't, you belong somewhere other than the church that affirms that he rose from the dead.

Let us note that Biblical Inerrancy is a far less important doctrine to Christianity in general than the Resurrection.

Let us also note that the use of disciplinary action to compel belief on pain of expulsion is a rather questionable idea anyway.

And also let us note that Biblical Inerrancy is easily seen to be false. Remember your last thread on the subject: Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections (which could more accurately be titled Biblical Inerrancy falls flat on its face)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1561 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 10:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1570 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:33 PM PaulK has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6519
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1568 of 1575 (847421)
01-22-2019 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1559 by Phat
01-22-2019 7:05 AM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
Phat writes:

I cant afford to embrace fantasy...i need real assurance.

I suppose you recognise the irony there? Is it cruel to point out that by your own belief system it is your god that has put you in this situation?

Look, all this bollocks apart, I wish you well tomorrow, for now you have to put your trust in your surgeon. Bon chance, matelot.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1559 by Phat, posted 01-22-2019 7:05 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1569 by Phat, posted 01-22-2019 2:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1569 of 1575 (847424)
01-22-2019 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1568 by Tangle
01-22-2019 2:04 PM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
Im at my sisters recovering. Ths surgery went well...no complications and no need for face down medical equipment needed. I prayed for the surgical staff before going in. the anesthetic has not worn off yet...so i anticipate mild discomfort for a day or two.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1568 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2019 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1571 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1570 of 1575 (847426)
01-22-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1567 by PaulK
01-22-2019 11:48 AM


funny since you feel free to change the Bible to suit yourself.

Too bad I have to keep correcting such a false accusation. No, my view of the Bible is the orthodox traditional view. I rely on orthodox traditional teachers and preachers, theologians and apologists, to keep me on track.

Its also funny since science doesnt require you to believe even established theories. You cant pretend it says something other than it does, but you can disagree with it.

Not if you're a scientist in that field you can't if you expect to get your work recognized.

Of course I don't have that handicap. I feel completely free to disagree with the Theory of Evolution and Old Earthism, but just as with Biblical dogma as I've been explaining, that puts me outside the orthodox community of those who subscribe to them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1567 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 11:48 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1572 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 2:53 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1571 of 1575 (847429)
01-22-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1569 by Phat
01-22-2019 2:26 PM


Re: it's gone way beyond searching by now
Glad to hear about the successful surgery. Why did you need it? That is, what was wrong with your eye?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1569 by Phat, posted 01-22-2019 2:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14645
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1572 of 1575 (847433)
01-22-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1570 by Faith
01-22-2019 2:33 PM


quote:

Too bad I have to keep correcting such a false accusation. No, my view of the Bible is the orthodox traditional view. I rely on orthodox traditional teachers and preachers, theologians and apologists, to keep me on track.

It certainly isnt false.

quote:

Not if you're a scientist in that field you can't if you expect to get your work recognized

Because nobody has heard of Albert Einstein.... Seriously, it is possible to get recognition by going against established theory. You just need a very strong case. And the payoff can be really high.
More, that really only applies to strongly established theories - physicists can get papers published proposing alternatives to Dark Matter, for instance. Its bad methodology more than unorthodox conclusions that tend to get scientists in trouble.

quote:

Of course I don't have that handicap. I feel completely free to disagree with the Theory of Evolution and Old Earthism, but just as with Biblical dogma as I've been explaining, that puts me outside the orthodox community of those who subscribe to them.

But you get in worse trouble for making false claims, employing poor reasoning and insisting that your arguments are good even when it has been shown that they are not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1570 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1573 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:55 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30497
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1573 of 1575 (847434)
01-22-2019 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1572 by PaulK
01-22-2019 2:53 PM


Oh don't be such a silly pedant. Of course scientific theories can be overturned under the right circumstances, but not by the average scientist doing average work within the field. And of course no analogy is going to be perfect since the Bible is the only absolute inerrant truth that exists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1572 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 2:53 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1574 by PaulK, posted 01-22-2019 3:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14645
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1574 of 1575 (847437)
01-22-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1573 by Faith
01-22-2019 2:55 PM


quote:

Oh don't be such a silly pedant. Of course scientific theories can be overturned under the right circumstances, but not by the average scientist doing average work within the field

It is neither silly nor pedantic to point out that there is no analogy. A scientist is not expelled from science simply for unorthodox beliefs. There are no scientific theories that must be believed.

quote:

And of course no analogy is going to be perfect since the Bible is the only absolute inerrant truth that exists.

And there you go making false claims again. The Bible is not inerrant. Remember your utter failure to defend it ? Ive already linked to the thread today and Ill do it again if I must.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1573 by Faith, posted 01-22-2019 2:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2375
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1575 of 1575 (847445)
01-22-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1550 by Faith
01-21-2019 3:02 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Based on what? A bunch of young guys coming back late from a church gathering staging this thing? For whom? Phat's report shows no such nonsense.

It only takes one person to throw a voice. One young person, looking for attention, that's all that's required here. I don't expect you to agree, but surely you can appreciate that from my perspective that sounds much more believable than literal demons. I don't find Phat's anecdote particularly compelling.

I was alone in my apartment at night. Who would be throwing the voice?

No-one. If you were alone, we can safely rule out ventriloquism in your example.

I'm guessing that the voices wouldn't have been audible to anyone else, but I have no way of knowing.

I'm guessing that too.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1550 by Faith, posted 01-21-2019 3:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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