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Author Topic:   AntiGod education should not be compulsary (even for non wealthy)
Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 211 of 281 (85538)
02-11-2004 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Coragyps
02-11-2004 7:59 PM


On a side note, the original pledge went like this:
"I pledge alliegiance, with the flag, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Coragyps, posted 02-11-2004 7:59 PM Coragyps has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 281 (85543)
02-11-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Cthulhu
02-11-2004 8:19 PM


you must admit..
No, you don't, because it doesn't happen.
[about suspension for christian students] Glad you said that. Here is a few of them, Obviously the forum would not want me posting page after page after page full. (links included if full articles desired)
Illinois Student Broadcaster Suspended For Saying 'God Bless' Reinstated
Melanie Hunter
Deputy Managing Editor
(CNSNews.com) - An Illinois high school student suspended for saying "God Bless" on the air has been reinstated to anchor the daily newscast, which is aired on the closed circuit television system at the school.
( Illinois Student Broadcaster Suspended For Saying 'God Bless' Reinstated - Christian News Headlines )
Middle school student suspended for harassing teacher about religion
September 30, 2003
By AMY GATLEY
COLONIAL HEIGHTS - A Colonial Heights Middle School student was suspended last week after she encouraged another student to put a religious pamphlet on a teacher's desk.
School officials say the eighth-grader was not suspended for handing out religious material, but for repeatedly discussing her beliefs with a teacher after being told not to.
Middle school student suspended for harassing teacher about religion
January 05, 2003
Student suspended for distributing Christian message - US
Seven Westfield (Boston) High School students were notified early yesterday that they would be suspended from class for distributing candy canes with religious notes to their classmates before Christmas
http://www.anglicanmedia.com.au/news/archives/000315.php
So we see, you are wrong!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Cthulhu, posted 02-11-2004 8:19 PM Cthulhu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Asgara, posted 02-11-2004 8:52 PM simple has replied
 Message 218 by hitchy, posted 02-11-2004 11:54 PM simple has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 213 of 281 (85546)
02-11-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
02-11-2004 8:43 PM


Re: you must admit..
No one is getting suspended in your examples for prayer or carrying of a bible. The issues involved are pushing their beliefs on others, especially after being asked not to, and to using a school sanctioned daily broadcast to advocate a particular belief system.
When I was in school, and also in my children's schools, students brought bibles to school all the time. Students before meals and tests. Heck, students even held prayer meetings on school property. None of these things are illegal.

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by simple, posted 02-11-2004 8:43 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 214 of 281 (85581)
02-11-2004 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Coragyps
02-11-2004 7:59 PM


quote:
(hand outstreched with arm pointing toward flag) the flag...." But they quit that when Herr Hitler's version got too popular.
Yeah, it kind of looked like that. That gave the movie I saw it in an almost surreal quality.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Coragyps, posted 02-11-2004 7:59 PM Coragyps has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 281 (85597)
02-11-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Asgara
02-11-2004 8:52 PM


Re: you must admit..
"2003-OCT-1: TN: Student suspended over creationism: A grade eight student at the Colonial Heights Middle School in Kingsport TN was suspended because she failed to follow an order to stop discussing religion in class. The problem began in science class when the teacher was discussing the big-bang theory about the origin of the universe. Some students objected, saying that it conflicted with their religious beliefs. The teacher told them that she could not lead a religious discussion in science class. Principle William Cline is reported as saying that this led to a rumor mill concerning the teacher's religious beliefs that was harmful to the teacher and disrupted learning. Cline is reported as saying that when a student allegedly encouraged another pupil to put a religious pamphlet on the teacher's desk, the teacher "felt like it was a form of harassment." The student was suspended" Religion in U.S. public schools - Recent developments
Page not found - WND
Homepage - adherents
I think it's clear the evos are bullying. But you call'm like u c'em. We will not agree it is a healthy godly atmosphere. Big change a comin real real soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Asgara, posted 02-11-2004 8:52 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 239 by nator, posted 02-13-2004 9:18 AM simple has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 216 of 281 (85607)
02-11-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by simple
02-11-2004 11:08 PM


Constitutional
This is simply following the constitution of the USA.
When the science discussion is based on something other than religion it should be ok. It would be necessary to see exactly what the form of the objections that the student raised were.
Quoting Genesis is not valid in this context. Asking about what evidence supports the big bang would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by simple, posted 02-11-2004 11:08 PM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 281 (85613)
02-11-2004 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Silent H
02-11-2004 7:58 PM


almost a wrap
I am saying that the heroes of the US had many different Gods and feelings about their Gods.
But the one feeling they had at a time of GREAT PATRIOTISM TO THIS COUNTRY... is that
their belief in God had nothing to do with their belief in this nation
And in flander's fields and places, there are miles of evo fishes, row on row! They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have always been taught that these boys thought they were fighting for God, as well as keeping their people free from evil. Anyhow, we have expressed opinions, and get a good idea where each ones stand. Yhat pretty well covers it here I think. Any last minute add ons or points while the thread is open?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Silent H, posted 02-11-2004 7:58 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 12:29 AM simple has replied
 Message 240 by nator, posted 02-13-2004 9:22 AM simple has not replied

hitchy
Member (Idle past 5117 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 218 of 281 (85624)
02-11-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
02-11-2004 8:43 PM


Let's recap, shall we!?!
As I write this there are 214 messages on this thread. How did we get this far? Let's recap...
gipper says that evolution should not be taught in schools for several reasons--b/c
1)it is "anti-god education"
2)"I might feel better if evolution was taught as supernatural, as it is a faith based religion of unbelief in God"
3)"hatching, an agenda to paint God out of the picture. That's not "biology" it's well called "religion" It's not based on science, but science falsely so called, some would say."
4)"the vast majority of Americans believe in a Creator (Yes Jesus as well, most of them!) That any compulsary education reflect that."
5)"The problem is not in belief but in unbelief here. Stick to the facts in all sciences, none of which include evolution at all."
6)"Results of a godless public school system. Drugs, suicide, murder, lack of faith, violence, etc."
7)"But they don't share a common ancestor, thats rot. Your scientific offerings have been weighed and found wanting. If you really believe that my condolances."
8)"'in gunk we trust, we all crawled out of it and this worship shall be enforced by force of law, whether you and the children like it or not -(salam) science tells us so, or at least suggests it in what we like to try to call more than a theory' Keep it pal, it stinks"
9)"mutations eh? all beneficial right? ha. don't think so"
10)"There's evidence to interpret either way."
11)"I can have an opinion on the education system, without accepting any theory."
12)"Perhaps it is you who do not understand? Now if it was a fact, that would have some bearing! And I can see many of you don't want to let that stop you. The evolution theory has suffered a number of known setbacks, especially Darwinism. I'm not wanting to dig it all up."
The last quote was from Post 72. I stopped there b/c we have more than enough to stop this madness. By the way, this is my last post here b/c the gipper bores me in the sense that he/she has offered no counterarguments to mine (or anyone else's). Gipper has also not supported his/her arguments with anything besides hubris, innuendo, a misunderstanding of science, and a misunderstanding of public school education. I am sure there are more problems, but I digress.
1, 2, and 3 all show that gipper cannot tell the difference between something having no say what-so-ever on the existence of a god/creator and something that is antagonistic to the idea of the existence of a god/creator.
4 shows that gipper does not understand how freedom of all religious viewpoints (or lack of a viewpoint) protects his/her own ability to profess whatever faith he/she wants. (This is one reason why we must fight against infringement on the first amendment. Gipper's ideas here smack of fascism.)
5, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 12 all show that gipper is ignorant of scientific methodology.
6 shows that gipper is using the reductio ad absurdum argument used by many creationists before. Like these things needed the teaching of evolution to occur!?!
11 just smacks of hubris.
I also received no counterarguments against my post on common descent except for 7, which is not an argument or rebuttal, but merely a "they don't b/c I said so".
Many other good posts were put forth by others with more knowledge, better debating skills, and quicker wit than me. I thank you all for enlightening my grossly limited understanding of science and evolution.
Jazzlover and gipper can go suck it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by simple, posted 02-11-2004 8:43 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by simple, posted 02-12-2004 12:46 AM hitchy has not replied
 Message 221 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 1:14 AM hitchy has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 219 of 281 (85635)
02-12-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by simple
02-11-2004 11:31 PM


quote:
They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I have always been taught that these boys thought they were fighting for God, as well as keeping their people free from evil.
Let's pretend for a second that there really are no atheists in foxholes. A careful review of WW2 soldiers will indicate that they were not all Xian, or even monotheists.
While any soldier was perfectly able to consider themselves fighting for their God or Gods, what would have been reprehensible, and is reprehensible, is to have every soldier forced to say the God they are fighting for is that of the majority. Putting specific commentary about religious beliefs in government writing/practices robs minorities of their freedom.
quote:
Anyhow, we have expressed opinions, and get a good idea where each ones stand. Yhat pretty well covers it here I think. Any last minute add ons or points while the thread is open?
Yeah... how about answering my first reply to you that did not express "opinions", but gave you FACTS regarding the history of religion's relationship to the US government?
Unless you have something to counter concrete Federal Documents such as the 1797 treaty with Tripoli, or will at least try to address the points I made in that earlier post, I will take your silence as an admission that you are wrong.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by simple, posted 02-11-2004 11:31 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by simple, posted 02-12-2004 1:38 AM Silent H has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 281 (85636)
02-12-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by hitchy
02-11-2004 11:54 PM


hitchy learned here
Actually, except for where you put your own words in, it was pretty good!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 221 of 281 (85641)
02-12-2004 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by hitchy
02-11-2004 11:54 PM


Just to correct a point. In number 6 (the result of godless education is blah blah blah) he is actually using the Slippery Slope argument.
A reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument which takes an initial position by an opponent to its logical conclusion (which would be undesirable to the opponent).
In this case he is not taking anything to its logical or necessary conclusion. He is simply saying secular education destroys lives. That is one very slippery slope.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by hitchy, posted 02-11-2004 11:54 PM hitchy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 281 (85642)
02-12-2004 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by simple
02-12-2004 12:46 AM


Re: hitchy learned here
Ok 14gipper, stop babbling about anti-god education and provide some scientific evidence that Evolution is false. Once you do this I will agree that it shouldn't be taught in schools.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by simple, posted 02-12-2004 12:46 AM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 281 (85645)
02-12-2004 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Silent H
02-12-2004 12:29 AM


parting mouthful
In God we trust & one nation under God -was meant to be brought up to show that The government seems to like the impression it is on God's side. And that the US is considered a christian country by many. Your recent enemies say something like you are on a 'holy war'. As if as christians, for example. Your country has sent out more missionaries than any other. And has enjoyed a certain amount of protection from God. My own opinion is that you are not a christian country, and that christians there should basically get very serious about seperating themselves from your rule. For starters, my humble little opinion would be to sell all the churches in the country. (Before you folks shut them down anyhow, and they get nothing out of it) Meet in halls, or beaches or something a lot cheaper. With the money, then use it to preach the gospel in all the world. Maybe some of it to rescue the kid's from your diobolical cluthes! I would also suggest they do not support bombing towns full of people, therefore get out of your godless military. I also suggest real boycotts maybe 50 million strong of evil activities and or products. I also suggest they protect their children at all costs from those anti Christ types who like to X out Christmas, and steal their faith. I could go on, but you may not like some of my more controversial opinions! Like the catacombs in Rome, you fight the way Christians should fight. Not dropping nuclear weapons on humanity, but trying to heal, save, and convert them to Love. You see Love is precisely, literally, unarguably, God! here is the equation, God = Love Love = God. That's why He gave His Son-Love! So for the US itself, if they delare themselves (as they for the most part are-anti Christ)- then great! Sooner the better! Then everyone knows where they stand. Until they p or get off the pot, at least, I am all for having God taught, and promoting evilution outlawed! As it will be shortly anyhow all over the world, as the waters cover the sea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 12:29 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 02-12-2004 1:43 AM simple has replied
 Message 229 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 12:09 PM simple has replied
 Message 241 by nator, posted 02-13-2004 9:37 AM simple has not replied

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 281 (85646)
02-12-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by simple
02-12-2004 1:38 AM


Re: parting mouthful
What makes you think you are right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by simple, posted 02-12-2004 1:38 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by simple, posted 02-12-2004 1:58 AM Rand Al'Thor has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 281 (85653)
02-12-2004 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Rand Al'Thor
02-12-2004 1:43 AM


Re: parting mouthful
about what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 02-12-2004 1:43 AM Rand Al'Thor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 02-12-2004 2:00 AM simple has replied

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