Does God Really Exist???

Yes, that's true - and so that experience is not scientific proof. But what makes you dis-believe the Testimonies? Don't answer, the wiz box recalls your answer, was it:" It's not a matter of believing you, it's a matter of convincing yourself you have had an experience " - Well, I think that's atleast similar to what you said but I can't be sure because the mind is not completely accurate when remembering things. Ofcourse that topic was concerning prayer though.So are we believers all delusional ?

Hey, Ned - I know the scientific process is based on what can be measured etc, Methodological Naturalism. But it is Schrafinator - the person, I am asking her if she thinks I am delusional. I have already said personal experiences are not scientific proof. I agree that some if not many people who think they have had an experience with God are delusional. Yet, I have heard many Testimonies of persons that show no signs of being either mentally ill/killers. There are Testimonies of people who have themselves went to see a doctor thinking that they were delusional only to find that they pass as being completely rational. Apparently 33% of the worlds people claim to be Christian, and I'm guessing they are not all delusional of whom have claimed some kind of experience. Though I do not infact know what amount out of that 33% have actually experienced something - answer to prayer/Holy Spirit/other experience. Also, an atheist gave me that figure, I cannot be sure if 33% is accurate. I will try and find the link if you wish it.

Brad, 33% of the world say you aren't delusional.
if their basis is that you are merely Christian. I read your post and I don't think you are delusional for living rent free, I think you are lucky though! I don't think the likelihood is high. Could you atleast give me a reason as to why you think the likelihood is high?
I have only ever said I believe in the God of the Bible and I am Christian, is that because, in your opinion - I am delusional. Does that then mean that 33% of the world are also delusional?Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand Are you saying someone has implanted Christianity into me despite my independent submission to it? I had a similar circumstance when a fellow employee insisted I was taking Christmas eve off work to get at him, he was paranoid and delusional and I indeed empathize, but how does this relate to my circumstances?[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-23-2004]

But I thought atheists here had argued that the Muslim God is also the God of Abraham?
Has this now changed because it doesn't fit the debate?Either billions are delusional like you say, or infact they are on to something. Certainly lots if not all of the people you mentioned would agree God exists - even if they did get his name wrong. And to be honest Dan, you're a man of the vote aren't you - You are outvoted. Because if you are right then possibly 4.1 billion people would disagree with the delusional non-believers and infact say that I am not delusional.

I'm not saying being outvoted makes you wrong. But - you are nevertheless outvoted. So all I'm saying is - I am quite confident that if a possible 4.1. billion people say I am not delusional then that satisfies me. Most here are evo' and they seem to outvote and outdo the Creo's - I don't like that and they could be wrong about evolution being true, but nevertheless, I am outvoted. To say billions are deluded is one hell of a statement. Personally, this is one of the main reasons I will never listen to the atheist or respect him/her opinion about God. No offense but too many people come to a conclusion that I am delusional and have a " invisible friend " or believe in " fairy stories ". As long as I listen to this stuff why should I pay them their dues? I also think they are delusional to say such an absurd thing as " God does not exist ". 4.1 billion would agree they have deluded their selves. Also though Dan, can you atleast show me that my Christian beliefs are delusional? You know I have said in the past that my prayers have been answered, or proved sufficiently to me. Yet you think I am delusional still? You have also and other people, offered an explanation which is insufficient in explaining some of these answered prayers. Please give me atleast a reason as to why you insist I am delusional. I have NO reason to believe you but God I DO have reason, he has kept his word concerning me!

Unless you can show me I am delusional, and now I am apparently possibly not, why is their a chance I am if my prayers have been sufficiently answered? - I'll put it another way, do you believe I am correct about my prayers? - If not, explain sufficiently as to why I am delusional, or just ......erm, possibly delusional. Scraff has said there's a chance I could be also, I'm assuming then that I can be shown my possible error. If there is a reasonable answer as to why Christianity is wrong then I will take heed. But if this is all about possible deludutants then we are all possibly deluded, that we can agree on. Yet, can you answer me honestly - Am I deluded Dan? Can you tell me which ones or are we all - including Schraff, Ned Dan and Mike - delusional?[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-23-2004]

I didn't say prove a negative, didn't I say to simply show me how I could be wrong, or guide me concerning my possible delusion. I have only ever said that my prayers/experiences are proof for me, yet I also said:" Yes, that's true - and so that experience is not scientific proof. But what makes you dis-believe the Testimonies? "I don't ask you to prove Christianity wrong, I just wanted you to show me how I should believe that I am possibly delusional. Your first post said one of the three religions are going to be delusional because one has to be wrong. But what about the atheists? What about the possibility of their delusion as to there being no god/s. Sorry Dan, you've mis-understood me. I am not trying to prove my God to you. I am simply wondering if people think I am delusional without inquiring into why/how I came to believe. So you suspect I am deluded. Despite not offering any reasons as to why I should stop believing what I am supposedly, possibly being deluded by. Well, to be honest I could also suspect you are delusional following your own logic:I said: " But if this is all about possible deludutants then we are all possibly deluded, that we can agree on. "You said: " Yes, we certainly can. "Therefore, following your logic I am no more/less delusional than an atheist or non-believer. I guess the game's up.Ps. This was ofcourse a question to Schraff, I wondered if she thought I was delusional. It interest me - that's all, though, now I can hardly recall her answer.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-23-2004]

Okay already. Fair enough. It's just that you Ned and Schraff all seemed to be saying or atleast implying an answer to my question " Am I deluded " as being " yes ". Or atleast you and Schraff anyways. Okay, fair enough we could all be deluded. I'm glad you've been honest with me, maybe people have gone and ran with the question to Schraff, it was a quick thought as I wondered if she would answer, I seem to recall her avoiding a similar question in the past. That's fine. All I was saying is that there is a possibility that we are on to something with this God stuff and that, that is a big statement to call all of us deluded, let's not miss out the atheists possible delusions. But fair play - you've been honest. Fretwell-stylins? clarify. Ofcourse I have not read all of this thread, I don't think I have read any posts of yours except when they referred to me. Well, this is part of my point to someone else. To claim possibility of me being delusional without knowing my exact circumstances is a bit premature if not unscientific. I'll admitt secrecy - yes. And I certainly would not test my God with silly things like " pick a number ". To be honest, I don't even ask for stuff hardly ever unless I think it is needed. Maybe in future I might divulge but I do not seek negative input with important beliefs of mine. Hehe, you know very well that the logical wiz box was born to get on your nerves man. I'll get off the stage, but I only stayed on it because so many people got involved in the whole delusion thing. Maybe it was a momentary lapse of reason to continue. Post 190, did make sense though, I don't see what was wrong with that post, as I combed over everything I had previously said. I was only asking for a reason as to the claims of my possible delusion afterall.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-23-2004]

Brad, I'm ready to drop the whole delusional argument. I don't know if you are/aren't delusional. Dan said it is possible that everyone is delusional, therefore we all stand a chance of being and so then - nobody (atheists) can say I am delusional if they stand an equal possibility/chance of being delusional. I read your post - I think I know some of what you meant but basically you lost me at the third paragraph.
I only said 33% would say you are not delusional CONCERNING your belief in God.Interestingly though, nobody mentioned that infact the Jews believe in the same God as Christians - so that's nearly half the world that could possibly be ..........Nah, I won't say it. I hereby get off the stage.Schraf' Yes, now I remember - though to be honest Schraff, sometimes wishful thinking cannot have an effect on reality. If I ask for something in prayer - and it happens shortly after - are you saying wishes come true? As I do not rcall having any Luke Skywalker " force " powers. Self - deception - Even the prayers being answered would rule it out - especially prayer after prayer after prayer coming true. Post - Hoc reasoning? Your spinning my wizbit. --------------------------------------------------'Mike is or is not I keep the ike mike hot...' - Brad Mcfall , .[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-24-2004]

Mike - But if this is all about possible deludutants then we are all possibly deluded, that we can agree on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dan - Yes, we certainly can.
---------------------------------------------I am not mis-representing you Dan, as you can see above you agreed we are all possibly deluded. So what is so bad about me saying:" Dan said it is possible that everyone is delusional, therefore we all stand a chance of being. "You insist I read your posts concerning this, yes?
All I am doing is saying what has happened so far. I do not seek to twist your words you know. Also, I've got off the stage and tried to give you the last word on this.

She might have a point but to be honest I've heard this one too many times from the old "less of a chance" deludants. In other words, it's a good idea, but it's guesswork. Maybe people did make gods to help them with death, idols etc. - And the real God made us. Certainly that would fit the physical history of idolatry. I mean - why invent an invisible God? History shows that people prefer to make their gods.

I see you idea but why make a God that you know doesn't exist? How will that comfort you if you know it's not true anyway. Remember, the first person to "invent" would ofcourse know he/she was inventing, I find this hard to believe though Schraff because the "inventor" would have invented, it would then only be the next people to believe who really would take comfort. And besides this, why not make, as in - physically, a "comforter" rather than trying to convince people of an invisible God which you cannot point at and say "look, there he is" ? I see your your "idea" as a fair point but it has it's problems. Certainly I see your 'logic' as okay, and my God doesn't require that I deny your idea, I just don't think it applies to God. Your idea is certainly a possibility though, because there have been an awful lot of idols found throughout history. Do not dis-believe in God because of me.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-26-2004]

So it wasn't inventing them to seek comfort? As that would require inventing. I know what you are saying and YES - maybe to your surprise, I see your logic. But don't rule out God because of potentially invented or "to explain phenomena" gods. A thing that really mystifies me is the length people have went to in the past - the Pyramids for example. I admire the power of their belief to actually be this Creatively inspired - but I am biased being creative myself. It did dis-please me when you said you want no part of God because of me. I would indeed look upon that as my fault, and would have failed to preach properly. I mean, the last thing I would want is for me to cause such a thing. That would be a complete failure for me.

Why would that be needed in a chance universe? What's the point in "time". Time itself indicates that God exists. --> Boy am I on topic.

"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall never pass".