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Author Topic:   Does God Really Exist???
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 150 of 305 (87688)
02-20-2004 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dan Carroll
02-17-2004 2:44 PM


I wanted the following to be my quote but it's too long:
"All right, yes, date and shop and hang out and go to school and save the world from unspeakable demons. You know, I wanna do girlie stuff!"
-Buffy Anne Summers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-17-2004 2:44 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-20-2004 9:32 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 305 (87691)
02-20-2004 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Chris
02-18-2004 12:53 PM


quote:
(Mat 7:1-5): Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.... etc.
You , to clarify, do you believe that one may judge others just so long as one doesn't mind being judged oneself?
...because that's what the passage means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Chris, posted 02-18-2004 12:53 PM Chris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Chris, posted 02-20-2004 11:04 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 305 (87770)
02-20-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Chris
02-20-2004 11:04 AM


I just wanted to make sure you weren't implying that the passage you quoted said that it was wrong to judge. It just means that if one chooses to judge others, one should expect to be subjected to judgement as well.
I also agree that The Bible needs to be taken as a whole. That's why isolated Bible quotes are not very useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Chris, posted 02-20-2004 11:04 AM Chris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Chris, posted 02-20-2004 4:26 PM nator has not replied
 Message 163 by DoingMyBest, posted 02-21-2004 10:34 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 305 (87962)
02-22-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by DoingMyBest
02-21-2004 10:34 PM


Re: If and if...
quote:
When I was young I had an experience which proved beyond any doubt that "God" is indeed a very real person.
A person? Really?
Where does He live?
quote:
If the big bang theory is correct then God must have evolved.
Really? Why?
quote:
I can theorize with the best and rest of us but where is the evidence that there exists another planet with pre-sapien spirit hominids.
Um, what, exactly, are pre-sapien spirit hominids?
quote:
God is a spirit.
I thought you said that God was a person.
quote:
Were his ancestors spirits. Or did flesh evolve into spirit?
Is there any way of knowing anything about the facts surrounding these questions? I don't think so.
quote:
If any of you saw what I've seen there would be no question at all "Does God exist?".
That's what everybody who believes says. The problem being, of course, that every person's experience of God is purely individual. I can't also look at what you saw to judge for myself about the existence of your God, so all we are left with is individual personal testimony. Fine for you, but utterly unconvincing for me.
quote:
There really are people in the universe who look just like us and live for thousands of years at the least, without any doubt.
Without any doubt? Any at all? Can you show us one of these thousands of years old people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by DoingMyBest, posted 02-21-2004 10:34 PM DoingMyBest has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 02-22-2004 11:37 AM nator has not replied
 Message 167 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 11:42 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 172 of 305 (88106)
02-23-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by mike the wiz
02-22-2004 6:56 PM


Re: Delusional
quote:
Hey, Ned - I know the scientific process is based on what can be measured etc, Methodological Naturalism. But it is Schrafinator - the person, I am asking her if she thinks I am delusional. I have already said personal experiences are not scientific proof.
I don't know if you are deluded or not, mike.
But if I'm really honest, I'd say the liklihood is high.
Do you remember a few years back when the "recovered memories of childhood abuse" fad swept the nation? As it turns out, many of the psychotherapists who were "helping" all of these people "recover" memories were actually implanting memories instead. The same things happen in police interrogation rooms.
Do I think that the people who think they have been abused by their parents as children because the memory of it has been implanted in them by their therapist are mentally-ill? No, not at all. Do I think they are delusional? Absolutely.
I once ran a horse farm for a woman. I gave her my notice, and was pretty clear with her about the reasons I was leaving (she was very unreasonable in her demands, she was a control freak, and the pay sucked). At no time did I ever tell her that I was leaving because I wanted to concentrate on being a riding instructor. However, in order to avoid the emotional pain of confronting the actual reasons for my leaving(she was horrible to work for), she convinced herself that I wanted to persue this riding instructor gig. So, that's what she believed.
Delusional.
(I'll also add that right before I moved away I found out that this woman had gone through twenty five employees in 4 years! None of them had been fired, either. I only stayed 6 months, and that would have been 3 months if it hadn't been for the worst winter in 10 years.)
Most people are deluded about something, all the time, mike. It's nothing special or rare. It's part of the human condition.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-23-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by mike the wiz, posted 02-22-2004 6:56 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Brad McFall, posted 02-23-2004 11:50 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 203 of 305 (88365)
02-24-2004 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by mike the wiz
02-23-2004 12:57 PM


quote:
S: Do you remember a few years back when the "recovered memories of childhood abuse" fad swept the nation? As it turns out, many of the psychotherapists who were "helping" all of these people "recover" memories were actually implanting memories instead.
Are you saying someone has implanted Christianity into me despite my independent submission to it?
The people who have had false memories implanted in them "independently submitted" to the psychotherapy sessions, too.
The short answer to your question is yes, mike, the idea that the feelings you have are "spiritual" or "from God", and, more specifically, from a particular God/Jesus, were essentially implanted in you through the influence of culture, friends, your own desire that it be true.
quote:
S: I once ran a horse farm for a woman. I gave her my notice, and was pretty clear with her about the reasons I was leaving (she was very unreasonable in her demands, she was a control freak, and the pay sucked).
quote:
I had a similar circumstance when a fellow employee insisted I was taking Christmas eve off work to get at him, he was paranoid and delusional and I indeed empathize, but how does this relate to my circumstances?
Read my story a bit closer, mike.
Even though I told this woman honestly why I was leaving her employ, she found that too painful or uncomfortable to deal with, I guess because if she admitted that she was a completely unreasonable and unfair employer, she might have to change her behavior.
Rather than admit this to herself, she instead invented in her own mind a different reason for me wanting to leave which I never included in my reasons for leaving.
It was very easy for her to delude herself into believing something that was quite false.
This kind of thing is common, mike. People tell themselves lies and spin the truth in their own minds to comfort themselves and to avoid self-reflection all the time.
[This message has been edited by CreationMan, 02-24-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by mike the wiz, posted 02-23-2004 12:57 PM mike the wiz has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 204 of 305 (88366)
02-24-2004 11:09 AM


This to to Mike.
Hi Mike,
I noticed in this thread that you allude to your answered prayer experiences being influential in your belief in Christianity.
I'm sure I have mentioned the extreme unreliability of such claims to you in the past. The liklihood of confirmation bias, post-hoc reasoning, and wishful thinking is huge, with the result being self-deception.
The questions to ask yourself are:
"Have I looked for evidence which disconfirms my theory that my prayers were answered by the Christian God?"
"Am I taking note of the times my prayers aren't answered as well as when they are?"
"Am I deciding what constitutes a successfully answered prayer only after an event happens which could be considered an answer?"
"Am I letting my desire for God to exist bias the way I interpret events?"
etc.

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-24-2004 7:34 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 228 of 305 (88791)
02-26-2004 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by charlie
02-25-2004 2:56 PM


quote:
I don't know if Carl Sagan said "THE COSMOS IS ALL THAT IS, EVER WAS, OR EVER WILL BE". But I do know this, very shortly before his death he said there has to be something out there. He was refering to a supreme being, a god. I'm am also assuming by that statement that previously he thought otherwise. At death's door we sometimes re-examine our thoughts and beliefs.
According to Sagan's wife, there was no deathbed conversion:
'Carl's wife Ann Druyan, in the Epilogue to Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (published posthumously in 1997), gives a moving account of Carl's last days. They both acknowledged the fact that their final farewell would indeed be final:
"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by charlie, posted 02-25-2004 2:56 PM charlie has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 229 of 305 (88793)
02-26-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-24-2004 7:34 PM


Re: Do we even want God to exist?
quote:
I maintain, using scripture as my source, that the natural mind does NOT want God to exist, since it trumps our freedom of choice.
I maintain, using the natural and social history of the human race, that the natural mind most definitely wants the supernatural to exist, since it explains what we don't understand and comforts us by taking away the fear of death by providing us with the notion of an afterlife.
Belief in God helps us believe that we don't really die.
That's a pretty powerful concept, and plenty of reason for us to evolve a propensity for wanting to believe in the supernatural, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-24-2004 7:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 02-26-2004 10:45 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 234 of 305 (88874)
02-26-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by mike the wiz
02-26-2004 3:32 PM


Re: God made us we made gods
quote:
Maybe people did make gods to help them with death, idols etc. - And the real God made us.
Wow. You see the logic of my statement and reject it anyway.
If that's what your God requires, I don't want any part of Him.
quote:
Certainly that would fit the physical history of idolatry. I mean - why invent an invisible God?
Why invent an invisible God? It's a lot easier for an invisible god to take on any characteristic the believe needs the God to have.
Or, rather, if you need to believe in a god to get you through your life, then an invisible one is much easier to project upon it all of the characteristics you desire for this God to have.
quote:
History shows that people prefer to make their gods.
Very true, Mike, very true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by mike the wiz, posted 02-26-2004 3:32 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by mike the wiz, posted 02-26-2004 3:50 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 235 of 305 (88877)
02-26-2004 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
02-26-2004 10:45 AM


Re: Do we even want God to exist?
quote:
Yes, you have a point. This is a deep concept. People do want proof of immortality and divine love.
Yes. I can see religious feeling being very important in the early development of our species, as it was a very harsh existence compared to many people's lives today.
quote:
It is our own independant thinking that we do not want to give up, for we are afraid of being controlled.
Not sure what you mean by this or why you think it relates to why the natural mind is or isn't prone to belief in the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 02-26-2004 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 239 of 305 (89038)
02-27-2004 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by mike the wiz
02-26-2004 3:50 PM


Re: God made us we made gods
quote:
I see you idea but why make a God that you know doesn't exist? How will that comfort you if you know it's not true anyway. Remember, the first person to "invent" would ofcourse know he/she was inventing, I find this hard to believe though Schraff because the "inventor" would have invented, it would then only be the next people to believe who really would take comfort.
The concept of God likely began, as I've said, to explain powerful and bewildering occurrences in the lives of early humans. In our effort to figure out why stuff happened the way it did (Why does the water fall from the sky? Why does the mountain explode and rain fire upon us? How does the firey ball in the sky travel from horizon to horizon?), we just didn't have the technology to figure it out, and so we decided that such momentous, sometimes frightening or capricious events must be controlled by extremely powerful beings with abilities far beyond ours.
Yes, Gods were "invented", but they were decided upon by humans trying to figure things out. By definition, the "inventors" of Gods would have believed.
Also remember that religions evolve, just like any philosophy or social institution.
On the other hand, there have been thousands of different religions over time. How did they all start if they weren't all invented?
quote:
And besides this, why not make, as in - physically, a "comforter" rather than trying to convince people of an invisible God which you cannot point at and say "look, there he is" ? I see your your "idea" as a fair point but it has it's problems.
All major religions have some sort of physical symbols or images for adherents to latch on to. Only a few forbid "graven images" but even those have special clothes or items, or at least descriptions of their gods in their books.
quote:
Certainly I see your 'logic' as okay, and my God doesn't require that I deny your idea, I just don't think it applies to God. Your idea is certainly a possibility though, because there have been an awful lot of idols found throughout history. Do not dis-believe in God because of me.
Don't worry, Mike. I don't know if God/gods exist or not, and neither does anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by mike the wiz, posted 02-26-2004 3:50 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by mike the wiz, posted 02-27-2004 11:11 AM nator has not replied
 Message 241 by hitchy, posted 02-27-2004 3:47 PM nator has not replied

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