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Author Topic:   Does God Really Exist???
hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 241 of 305 (89089)
02-27-2004 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by nator
02-27-2004 10:46 AM


Not that a god/creator does/does not exist,...
...but is god worth arguing over. If a god does exist, then he/she/it is impreceptable in the natural world and we have no objective proof. If a god does exist and we can only claim to know this god subjectively, then we can choose whether to believe in him/her/it or not. I know you can say, "but god gave us free will", but that is still subjective. What happens if all of a sudden everyone agrees that a Christian god/creator does not exist? Same as if he/she/it does exist--nothing that we can preceive. Sure, people would react to the idea, but their reactions would be based in their free will.
If I say that we are doomed to responsibility for our actions and that we are absolutely free to do whatever we choose to do, then we are damned to freedom. You can say that my beliefs are subjective, but I wouldn't argue that they weren't. So, naturally, I would say that an omnipotent creator would be the exact antithesis of free will. Therefore, there is no god b/c I have no choice but to have freedom to do whatever I want. Granted, I have to keep in mind the consequences, which could include a whole lot of nasty shit if I am wrong about a personal god. But guess what? It doesn't matter to me. It is not that god exists/doesn't exist, it is whether a personal god is relevant or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by nator, posted 02-27-2004 10:46 AM nator has not replied

Rc2000
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 305 (89359)
02-29-2004 1:30 AM


Off Topic: Dan Carroll, Jack Kirby was a super talented writer and artist.
Finally read over all this and realized from seeing the different sides of the discussion that I need to take a good look at just what I believe and why.
Yes, I do believe God exists, but if I'm not clear to myself as to why I believe as I do, any attempt at talking to another about my faith is empty and meaningless.
Gotta love this place. Really makes me look at things different.
Rc
Edit: Had to add a little.
[This message has been edited by Rc2000, 02-29-2004]

Replies to this message:
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 305 (89442)
02-29-2004 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Stephen ben Yeshua
02-26-2004 3:31 PM


Re: NDE's
Sorry Stephen,
I have not had a chance to respond to your NDE links, and even now I've only looked at one. NDE's are close to off topic, but I suppose they are relevant to whether God exists (or the existence of a soul that a God might be interested in).
The link I studied, was Melvin Morse MD. After perusing his site, I conclude the following:
- Melvin is merely a doctor, not a scientist
- Melvin has dealt with the tradgedy of the death of illness and death in children for many years. His site is probably his way of helping parents cope and his own personal way of dealing with the tradgedy of his field of medicine
- Melvin is a quack
Firstly, his lengthy essay, which you link to, contains a body of anedoctal stories in support of supernatural experiences in NDE's. Probably the most informative part in his essay, is where he refers to mainstream scientifc and medical opinion of NDE's (which I outlined in a previous post):

I believe that most physicians and scientists interpret NDEs as secondary falsifications, distortions of man's perception of his environment while the brain is malfunctioning. As Negovsky54 speculates, "auditory perception may be preserved when areas of the cerebral cortex serving vision have ceased functioning and after motor activity has ceased." Without any mystical explanations we can understand why the dying and then revived person can tell us he or she heard the voices of physicians. The fact that resuscitated people in different countries can recall similar images seen by them during dying or resuscitation does not prove life after death. It can be explained by the dynamics of the disintegration of cerebral function caused by different resistances to anoxia of the various areas of the central nervous system.
Blackmore102 has developed a computer model of the images the brain receives from the retina at the point of death. The macula may cause a persistence of light images as the brain dies. As the brain dies, she speculates that an increase in cortical acceptability could destabilize the uniform visual image we perceive and result in the perception of concentric rings, lines, and tunnel.
The psychiatric literature is in general agreement that the experience is triggered by death anxiety, psychologic stress, and the fear of death.

The most articulate proponent of this concept is UCLA psychiatrist, Ron Siegel, one of the foremost experts on hallucinations. He points out that all of the elements of the NDE, tunnels, lights, religious figures, childhood memories, heavenly music, and the like are commonly seen in a wide variety of hallucinatory experiences. He sees the NDE as the dissociative hallucinatory activity of the brain and the common elements simply being common reactions of the central nervous system to stress coupled with cultural expectations and influences. His superb article should be read by anyone interested in this area and is difficult to adequately summarize.38
Footnote:
Sigel RK. The psychology of life after death. Am Psychol 1980;35:911-31.
How do I conclude Dr Morse is a quack? Well, meet Dr Morse:
melvinmorse.com | DNS PTR Record
On that page you'll see some gems, like:

When we die, we become fully conscious, aware of our surroundings, and experience spiritual insights we do not often have at other times in our lives.

When we die? NDEs are, by definition, not actually death. No one has ever come back from complete brain death. Morse's conclusion cannot simply not be made from the study of NDEs.
Dr Morse is making a manual:

A How-to Manual to Understand
Our Right Temporal Lobe:
I am developing a practical manual to teach people how to use the area of our brain linked to near death experiences. We evolved our brains about 200,000 years ago, and it came without an owners manual. We have many residual or unused talents such as remote viewing, telepathy, healing touch, and weak telekinetic abilities which are linked to this same brain area. Anyone can learn to use this latent area of our brain and have spiritual and near death experiences.

This is nutcase stuff. He is either a new age nutter, or just trying to make a buck. Of course if he truly believed that people had the above powers he could demonstrate them to James Randi and score a million dollars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-26-2004 3:31 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 12:22 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 305 (89490)
03-01-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Gilgamesh
02-29-2004 6:25 PM


Re: NDE's
Hey, Gil,
You believe in nutcase stuff?
This is nutcase stuff.
The problem with assigning the efforts of other humans to a "nutcase" category, is that you have to assume that this condition is possible in humans. But, since you are arguing as a human, you have to then defend yourself as not in that category. The problem then becomes, "What are the criteria by which they are nutcase, and not me?" Quite difficult, this. Obviously, if nutcases exist, you could be the nutcase, evidenced by calling this perfectly rational and well-intentioned person a pejorative "nutcase." What the psychologists call, Projection. Note that non-nutcase persons, and well-raised nutcase persons, know to never call anyone a nut-case, even if they appear to be one. Manners.
But, more to the point, let's say that you respect science. Then, the problem becomes, how to replicate. So, say this prayer: Father, if you are really out there, in a place called the heavenlies, take me on a tour. Sign up for a bout of hypothermic anesthesia (so far, no risk involved. But, yes, some dollars) and take a trip into the other side. See for yourself. Or have you appropriated the power of free will, and chosen already what to believe is true no matter what the evidence? I did the experiment. Got seven natural and seven adopted grandchildren out of the experiment. Plus every other dream that I had ever had, fulfilled.
Here's the deal, Gil. Maybe you are right, evolution and naturalism is true, spiritual belief an adaptive delusion that produces higher fitness in the face of other, cultural adaptations, such as civilisation. Then you "truthists" are anachronisms, believing in evolution because it is true, even though knowing the truth is poison to anyone living in the civilized world. You choose truth over life. Be my, and God's guest. We choose life, and if believing a lie means more life, I will believe the lie. If you are right, it's the right choice to make, since in evolutionary thinking, there are no values higher than life. But, if you are wrong, if spiritual thinking is true, producing higher fitness because it is true, then believing in evolution, naturalism, is the worse kind of mistake. Not only does one lose life (children, grandchildren, true adaptive fitness), but also dignity (Boy did you get taken in! The devil sure made a fool of you!").
The NDE data are consistent with the the "spiritual reality is truth" hypothesis. With other evidence, I am convinced that the spiritual hypothesis is the best explanation for NDE data. But, you can explain it all away if you want. Free will rules. Until either hypothesis predicts some surprizing pattern, what can either of us say?
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Gilgamesh, posted 02-29-2004 6:25 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 305 (89546)
03-01-2004 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Rc2000
02-29-2004 1:30 AM


quote:
Jack Kirby was a super talented writer and artist.
Damn right.

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Rc2000, posted 02-29-2004 1:30 AM Rc2000 has not replied

shyangel
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 305 (94883)
03-26-2004 1:08 AM


Quote:Who cares? I’ll start showing an interest in God when he starts showing an interest in us. Fixing malaria would be a start.
why does God let bad things happen? maybe this will help, it was an email sent to me by my wonderful Aunt and sister in Christ.
Billy
Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson
asked her "How could God let something like this happen?"
(regarding the attacks on Sept.
11).
Anne
Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said
"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but fo
years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of
our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.
How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her
body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they
misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we
might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said
OK.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking,humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said
OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said
OK.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said
OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and hemselves.
Probably, f we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think t has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE
SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through E-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through
cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?
Funny
how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Asgara, posted 03-26-2004 1:30 AM shyangel has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 247 of 305 (94887)
03-26-2004 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by shyangel
03-26-2004 1:08 AM


This little feel good article has been making the rounds for quite some time. (I stopped at the first 5 on google)
Petition Online - Petition Online has been retired
http://www.thesower.org.za/Boodskap/lets_think.htm
Minneapolis Web Design | Web Development | SEO MN
404 Not Found
404 Not Found
I take it from this post that you and Anne Graham believe that none of the bad things sited happened before the examples of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, or Dr. Spock, or pornography?
Abortion and murder and suicide and pornography and profanity as entertainment have been around as long as humanity. I don't know about you, but I have had no problem raising moral, intellegent, well adjusted, socially conscious children in a home with no god.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by shyangel, posted 03-26-2004 1:08 AM shyangel has not replied

shyangel
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 305 (94888)
03-26-2004 1:45 AM


quote: Abortion and murder and suicide and pornography and profanity as entertainment have been around as long as humanity. I don't know about you, but I have had no problem raising moral, intellegent, well adjusted, socially conscious children in a home with no god.
I totally agree that these things have been around for a long time but the reason they happened in the first place is because we chose to turn their backs on God.
The main part of that email that I was pointing out is, we wonder why bad things happen yet we have turned our backs on God, we trash Him, don't allow Him in our schools and promote truly evil things in our society.
I have no doubt that you can raise, moral, intellegent, well adjusted, socially conscious children in a home with no God but if after this life they don't go to heaven, then what is the point?

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2004 6:59 AM shyangel has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 249 of 305 (94902)
03-26-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by shyangel
03-26-2004 1:45 AM


I have no doubt that you can raise, moral, intellegent, well adjusted, socially conscious children in a home with no God but if after this life they don't go to heaven, then what is the point?
If there's no such place as heaven, what's the point of raising them to go there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by shyangel, posted 03-26-2004 1:45 AM shyangel has not replied

shyangel
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 305 (95489)
03-28-2004 9:14 PM


Well, I beleave there is a heaven because the bible (Gods word) says there is....what would be the point to life if this was all there was?

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by sidelined, posted 03-28-2004 11:41 PM shyangel has not replied
 Message 255 by compmage, posted 03-29-2004 3:22 PM shyangel has not replied

WiseMan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 251 of 305 (95495)
03-28-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CreationMan
02-16-2004 5:21 PM


Just a test new user

"I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CreationMan, posted 02-16-2004 5:21 PM CreationMan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by NosyNed, posted 03-28-2004 10:16 PM WiseMan has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 252 of 305 (95500)
03-28-2004 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by WiseMan
03-28-2004 9:58 PM


Well, hello Wiseman. Welcome.
However, you should have used the welcome visitors forum for your test. We try, a bit, to keep the topics tidy so that eveyone can follow them. Give a thought to where you are posting each time you post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by WiseMan, posted 03-28-2004 9:58 PM WiseMan has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 253 of 305 (95514)
03-28-2004 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by shyangel
03-28-2004 9:14 PM


shyangel
You live in Australia and you are complaining about
....what would be the point to life if this was all there was?
JUST WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH LIFE THAT MAKES YOU SAY THIS? Are you crippled with a painful debilitating disease or cancer? Are you beaten by your parents daily? Are you starving from lack of food? Sleep in the streets?Eat out of garbage cans? Were your parents hacked to death in front of you?Is war ravaging your countryside?
Life is such a blast if you quit whining about how poor you can't get an even break.Really,this kind of pathetic attitude about life is just not worth having to listen to.So please let us in on what makes life such a bummer won't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by shyangel, posted 03-28-2004 9:14 PM shyangel has not replied

shyangel
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 305 (95532)
03-29-2004 1:50 AM


quote:JUST WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH LIFE THAT MAKES YOU SAY THIS? Are you crippled with a painful debilitating disease or cancer? Are you beaten by your parents daily? Are you starving from lack of food? Sleep in the streets?Eat out of garbage cans? Were your parents hacked to death in front of you?Is war ravaging your countryside?
Life is such a blast if you quit whining about how poor you can't get an even break.Really,this kind of pathetic attitude about life is just not worth having to listen to.So please let us in on what makes life such a bummer won't you?
you really don't get it do you? there isn't anything wrong with my life, infact as life goes, I'd say I have it pretty good but what is the point to living and everything we do on earth if all we do after is die?
What good would life be if after everything we go through and acheive all we get in the end is nothing but a coffin in the ground?
I know everyone feels differently but for me and many others, life would be sort of silly if there wasn't a better place to go after it was all over, I know the assurance of a better place makes my life happier and even better, that place is with the Lord.

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Melchior, posted 03-29-2004 4:07 PM shyangel has not replied
 Message 257 by sidelined, posted 03-29-2004 7:22 PM shyangel has replied

compmage
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 255 of 305 (95707)
03-29-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by shyangel
03-28-2004 9:14 PM


shyangel writes:
what would be the point to life if this was all there was?
Who says there has to be a point?

Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in
this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely
conceives it, wants it, and loves it.
- Mikhail Bakunin, God and the State, from The Columbian Dictionary of Quotations

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by shyangel, posted 03-28-2004 9:14 PM shyangel has not replied

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