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Author Topic:   chromosome counts
like god
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 26 (97741)
04-04-2004 10:14 PM


ok. I will concede that I probably have 46 chromosomes although I would like to sign up for the high school class mentioned by Sylas.
It would also be cool to measure physiological changes to individuals after salvation. Not that there has to be anything, it would just be cool.
Now as for fantasies about Adam, I don't believe there is anything fundamentally different about getting from Adam's 24 chromosomes to our 46 then there are getting from apes to man.
And if there are Nephillum present today, they most assuredly would be avoiding chromosome tests. And by the method suggested herein the natural course of mating would produce 46 chromosomed individuals.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2004 10:40 PM like god has not replied
 Message 18 by Sylas, posted 04-04-2004 11:12 PM like god has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 26 (97749)
04-04-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by like god
04-04-2004 10:14 PM


And if there are Nephillum present today, they most assuredly would be avoiding chromosome tests. And by the method suggested herein the natural course of mating would produce 46 chromosomed individuals.
Then where do new Nephillum come from? How do they mate with each other without producing diploid individuals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by like god, posted 04-04-2004 10:14 PM like god has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 18 of 26 (97755)
04-04-2004 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by like god
04-04-2004 10:14 PM


like god writes:
Now as for fantasies about Adam, I don't believe there is anything fundamentally different about getting from Adam's 24 chromosomes to our 46 then there are getting from apes to man.
The problem is that what you "believe" about these things seems to come out of thin air.
It is not from the bible; nothing in the bible mentions chromosomes. It is not from science; you have pretty much acknowledged that you don't really know anything about chromosomes from a scientific perspective.
The proposal for Adam having 24 chromosomes involves a karyotype that is haploid for most chromosomes, but diploid for the sex chromosomes only. That is biological nonsense, and getting from such a karyotype to a human is radically different from getting from apes to humans.
Apes are genetically very similar indeed to humans. They have a different kayotype; 48 rather than 46 chromosomes; but this is not due to loss or gain of chromosomes, but a "fusion". Comparison of human and chimpanzee chromosomes shows unambiguously which two chimpanzee chromosomes can be combined to make a match for one of the human chromosomes.
Such a chromosomal anomaly can arise in humans today. (See this paper on Robertsonian translocations.) It is more common and less damaging than adding or removing a whole chromosome, because all the genetic information is still present in the appropriate amounts. However, individuals with fused chromosomes are usually infertile, since there is a much higher incidence of major chromosomal abberations in their children.
The genetic difference between apes and humans is comparatively slight.
What you are proposing is far more drastic; no vertebrates have the kind of karyotype you imagine.
And if there are Nephillum present today, they most assuredly would be avoiding chromosome tests. And by the method suggested herein the natural course of mating would produce 46 chromosomed individuals.
If there were X-men mutants present today with retractable stainless steel claws, they would most assuredly be avoiding manicures.
Sorry; but this is just failing to deal with the information you have requested and been given on your model. The karyotypes, and the mating methods of your model are biological nonsense.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by like god, posted 04-04-2004 10:14 PM like god has not replied

like god
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 26 (97760)
04-04-2004 11:37 PM


gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
I am believing you are not asking for a discussion on the birds and the bees. lol. All the Bible study guides I have seen refer to the Nephillum as fallen angels. I have found no reference to women as gender and the scripture above suggest that Nephillum were male. Therefore, like a horse and a donkey, the offspring of 46 chromosome humans with 24 chromosome Nephillum would produce 46 chromosome beings. The Nephillum had to have either special properties to survive the flood or that there are additional falls post flood. And Nephillum would not necessarily have the same life span limited to 120 years.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 12:44 AM like god has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 20 of 26 (97777)
04-05-2004 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by like god
04-04-2004 11:37 PM


like god writes:
gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
I am believing you are not asking for a discussion on the birds and the bees. lol. All the Bible study guides I have seen refer to the Nephillum as fallen angels. I have found no reference to women as gender and the scripture above suggest that Nephillum were male. Therefore, like a horse and a donkey, the offspring of 46 chromosome humans with 24 chromosome Nephillum would produce 46 chromosome beings. The Nephillum had to have either special properties to survive the flood or that there are additional falls post flood. And Nephillum would not necessarily have the same life span limited to 120 years.
If you look again at my post to which you are responding, you will find that you have ignored the point I am making.
What I said about the bible is that "nothing in the bible mentions chromosomes".
Sure; the bible mentions Nephilim; that is not in any dispute. The point you are avoiding is that the bible does not mention chromosomes.
What you are doing is making up a biologically nonsensical description from nothing but your own imagination, and adding that to what we find in the bible.
All the stuff about chromosomes or the karyotype of Nephilim is something you have invented out of thin air, and it makes no biological sense. This is what you were asking about, isn't it? You were asking if you biological ideas make sense? They don't. No offense intended, but all the stuff about chromosomes is gibberish.
Horse and donkey are both diploid. The number of chromosomes are different; but not because one has an incomplete complement. The difference is in the arrangement of genes into chromosomes. Donkeys have 62 chromosomes, and horses have 64. One of the donkey chromosomes corresponds to a fusion of two of the horse chromosomes, so they can still match up and make viable offspring. (Added in edit: sorry; the differences are a bit more complex and subtle than this; but that does not alter the basic point that this has nothing whatsoever to do with mating haploid and diploid organisms; let alone the biologically bizarre notion of an organism that is haploid in some chromosomes and diploid in others.)
This is nothing like your proposal, which involves a biologically nonsensical haploid individual with one extra sex chromosome mating with a normal diploid individual. You just don't know enough biology to understand how to make biologically meaningful hypotheses yet.
Cheers -- Sylas
[This message has been edited by Sylas, 04-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by like god, posted 04-04-2004 11:37 PM like god has not replied

like god
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 26 (97785)
04-05-2004 1:17 AM


I do not know of a Hebrew term for "chromosomes". I don't know of a term for "Space ship" or "microscope" for that matter either. I am simply trying to apply the premise of Wyatt's 24 Chromosome "living" blood back to Genesis. Romans speaks of Jesus as being a "pattern" of Adam. Perhaps the revelation is at the level of chromosome count.
And if the finding is applied back to original sin, the nature of death becomes the emergence of 46 chromosomes and would reveal truth in the word.
The Bible does not speak of chromosomes but the implications make sense if the whole idea works from a genetic point of view. Your position is that it does not make sense based on existing genetic diseases.
I buy that. And my knowledge of genetics leads a lot to be desired. I remember studying some simply pea characteristics in high school biology. And from the simple idea that there is redundant information, there is a plausible hypothesis that the pairs could have been independent at one time. A genetic model suggests that the emergence of Jesus was necessary as there were no more prophets that had ears to hear from God after John the Baptist. If there would have been a Levite or phophet other than John in his generation that could have heard from God, then the hole plan of salvation would have been corrupted. If the Jews would have "known" that Jesus was the Christ they would not have hung him on a tree to be cursed by God. He would not have shed his blood for you and I and there would be no hope.
I am not attempting to "add" to the Bible. I am simply trying to apply knowledge based upon known facts. I didn't test the blood Wyatt found, but his video of the test results and the very idea that Christ's blood would be found on the mercy seat is pretty compelling. And if anyone is led to salvation as a result it is all good. In fact, if any of it is done in the name of Jesus then it is good by definition.
If the 24 chromosome blood is a hoax, then it will make a great book or screen play. Every time I start talking about it, people open their Bible. Prophecy is fulfilled by becoming wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
The idea that we might be changed physiologically as a result of salvation does not hold much merit based on the pieces you have presented. That would make some great fiction as well.
I appreciate your comments. They provoke a better understanding of the issues.
blessings,

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 1:58 AM like god has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 22 of 26 (97799)
04-05-2004 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by like god
04-05-2004 1:17 AM


Ron Wyatt links
like god writes:
I am simply trying to apply the premise of Wyatt's 24 Chromosome "living" blood back to Genesis.
Ah! Sorry... I had forgetten about Wyatt. I was wrong to say that you invented the stuff about chromosomes out of thin air; my apologies.
The chromosome stuff is based on Wyatt's claim to have found a sample of Christ's blood, and determined that the cells contain 24 chromosomes.
I can't take Wyatt at all seriously. He is (was) just too silly for words.
The people who make the most effort to debunk his many ridiulous claims are other creationists. See, for example Lambert Dolphin's Ron Wyatt page; and the Tentmaker page; and the Answers in Genesis page. The whole thing seems to be some kind of bizarre hoax; and the most amazing aspect of it is that anyone took it seriously to start with. That anyone still takes it seriously just leaves me utterly amazed.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by like god, posted 04-05-2004 1:17 AM like god has not replied

like god
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 26 (97830)
04-05-2004 9:56 AM


There seems to be quite a bit of controbersy regarding Wyatt as per the sites you have listed. The idea that Christ was genetically different via a virgin birth creates a great premise for looking back at Genesis. Without any proof the speculation is great fiction.
Even without Wyatt's proof the premise lends itself to answers to a number of questions:
If Eve was "taken" from Adam, then where did her other X come from?
If Adam and Eve were biological twins, how do we account for genetic variety?
How many chromosomes did Jesus have if His birth was truly from a virgin?
How were Biblical people able to live for hundreds of years?
Was there a physiological consequence for the sin in the garden?
A genetic model would seem to be a viable model if it worked by design in Biblical times. You have made a pretty good case for the interdependency on pairs to prevent such distinct being now, but is the interdependency the result of the sin? If there is a 1 in 10,000 chance for mules to produce offspring and "evolution" occurs in mules than a viable species may develop??
At least in theory is it possible that Adam and Jesus had 24 chromosomes? Or does the theory go away based on a hoax?

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Sylas, posted 04-05-2004 11:20 AM like god has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 24 of 26 (97842)
04-05-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by like god
04-05-2004 9:56 AM


like god writes:
At least in theory is it possible that Adam and Jesus had 24 chromosomes? Or does the theory go away based on a hoax?
Shug. If it is all based on imagination, then you are welcome to imagine what you like. I'd not elevate this to the status of "theory"; it does not answer any of the questions you pose.
The notion of the haploid human, but with the sex chromosomes in pairs, is not possible in biological theory. It is only possible if you throw away all biological theory. For loose notions of "possible" (such as: anything is possible) and theory (such as: arbitrary speculations), it is possible in theory; in this sense it is also a theoretical possibility that Adam and Jesus had 69 chromosomes -- triploidy. You can imagine that this explains long life and salvation and whatever else as easily as monoploidy.
Or let's forget karyotypes; perhaps Adam and Jesus had an extra lung. Perhaps all the pre-flood humans had three lungs, and that explains long life. Recently there were two brothers in Bosnia who had four kidneys each. Perhaps they were Nephalim? Why pick on chromosomes? (See: Extra kidneys give hard-drinking brothers the edge. Apparently the major consequence was a phenomal capacity for strong drink. The story is true, and other such cases are known.)
The bible does not give any detail on genetics; so why bother thinking there is any reason to say Adam and Eve are biological twins? The story of the garden could hardly be more obviously symbolic if lit up in bright neon signs saying "caution; symbolic language ahead". It has a tree of knowledge, and a tree of life, and a talking snake, and God who walks in a garden, and much else that must have the writer turning in his grave that people have taken it as history. The making of Eve from a rib is rich in symbolism also.
But what the hey; let's play along, and see what questions it "answers".
If Eve was "taken" from Adam, then where did her other X come from?
If Adam and Eve were biological twins, how do we account for genetic variety?
How many chromosomes did Jesus have if His birth was truly from a virgin?
How were Biblical people able to live for hundreds of years?
Was there a physiological consequence for the sin in the garden?
There is no reason to say Eve is a biological twin of Adam. The bible describes God as making Eve from a rib; but that's all. Since God formed her with a body and limbs and breasts and all the rest starting from a rib, what is the problem with Him forming X chromosomes?
If you are willing to imagine that in the garden humans could survive with what would be fatal chromosomal anomalies in modern times, then why does Eve need another X anyway? In modern times a Turner's syndrome human (one X) is a woman. Maybe God just threw away the Y chromosome. If Eve really needed two X chromosomes; then why not recognize the need for two of every other chromosome also? After all, biological evidence indicates that she needs the others much more than she needed the second X.
Your model does not explain genetic variety. It makes it harder to explain genetic variety, because all Adam and Eve's children would effectively be identical twins. That is one hell of a lot LESS variety.
Your model does not do anything to help explain Jesus' genes. The problem here is where the Y chromosome came from. If you just invoke a miracle, then that is the "explanation"; not any nonsense about haploid karyotypes. There are animals that have virgin births; but the resulting descendents are just genetic copies of the mother... and hence female, of course. Genetically the answer is simple. Jesus can't have been a virgin birth; if a virgin birth happened in humans the only possible result scientifically speaking is a diploid copy (clone) of the mother. Not haploid. So either there was a father, or a miracle. Stuff about haploidy does not serve as an explanation.
Your model does nothing to explain long life. The chromosomal aberations just make long life harder to explain, not easier. In fact, it makes it hard to explain life at all! If you are willing to invoke a miraculous ability to live as haploids; then the explanation is the invocation of miracles; not the result of haploid karyotype.
The last question, of physiological consequences of sin, is bizarre. Why on earth would you expect such a thing? We can be confident that salvation does not suddenly remove half your chromosomes. Incredibly, that seemed to be your original proposal. Now you appear to recognize that you do keep all your chromosomes when you get saved. What will you try next? Perhaps salvation clears up acne... is that a meaningful theological question?
Cheers -- Sylas
PS. It never gets easier... if you ask questions about a model in a forum inhabited by science geeks, then problems will be pointed out unmercifully. If they can't be resolved, the usual scientific approach is to drop the model and find one that fits the evidence. If you hang on to a model riddled with flaws, people will keep pointing them out. That's how we get effective scientific models.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by like god, posted 04-05-2004 9:56 AM like god has not replied

like god
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 26 (98066)
04-06-2004 9:47 AM


The model being suggested was that Eve was formed from Adam. It was a subtraction, not an addition. Simple math. From 24 chromosomes to a twin with 23. She had sex with a fallen angel ie Nephillum. Satan had 24 so they created 46 chromosome babies as they were not "meant" to mate. Now Adam 23 minus the x and Eve minus the y could only create a recombinant of the original 24 producing all males. Females and Satan's line came from Eve's sin with Satan. As sin is propogated through the generations, by default the only way Adam's line is continued is that he or his son produce offspring from the women created from Satan's line. Interdependencies are created between the copeies of the chromosomes. And when the genes are corrupted enough to prevent recognition of the original pattern, it is reestablished in Jesus. There is no need to form a triploid or multiple lungs by Occum's razor.
I disagree with you that the Bible does not talk about chromosomes. It is centered on it. It is all about the blood! Eve gave the blood to satan by through the taking of her virginity. Jesus offered his blood for the redemption of the 46 chromosome species.
I don't know if Wyatt found anything other than a way to make money. I don't know if any evangelist finds anything other than a way to make money. But the plan of salvation and God's ability to harden hearts and reveal things hidden is enough to see the plausible model through the "idea" presented by Wyatt's claims.
Your additions of lungs or more chromosomes don't create a model that explains why Abel and Seth are in the image of Adam who was the image of God. Nor does it explain why Cain was killed even though he offered his first fruits to the Lord. A simple answer is that he was the offspring of satan and his "non perfect" set of 46 chromosomes was the result of grafting the perfect and the anti perfect. And the ultimate result of grafting will be the antigrafting. If the antichrist is cloned from the blood of Jesus, the 24 chromosome being will be able to wow scientist geeks like yourself and prove resurrection of the blood.
Proof will be in the pudding or blood in this case. Keep watching the Internet for the one who will come claiming he is Christ. If he has 3 lungs or 666 chrosomes, repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 26 of 26 (98182)
04-06-2004 5:55 PM


Thread copied to the chromosome counts thread in the Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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