Legal unions: the "should", "are", and "when" of entering them

AbE: I'm re-writing this, to try and get at my initial question better.

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Hi all,I need some help on thinking about legal unions between two people (for those for gay marriage, think "marriage". For those against gay marriage, think "marriage + unions legal to all people"). I'm looking for people's personal feelings on each of the following questions:

1. Why would you enter such a union? Based on emotion, or based on some decision-making process? And what would those processes be?
2. How would you tell whether it was the "right time" to enter such a union? What kinds of things would you think about to make that decision?

I don't mean for this to be a discussion topic as much as a call for ideas. I want to know who is deciding to do what and why. I don't really care to discuss it so much as understand thought processes.Try not to read too much into why I'm asking Thanks!
BenI guess this is Coffee House.This message has been edited by Ben, Friday, 2005/12/16 04:48 PM

Ben! Mr. Chameleon! Where do you want this topic to go?And you know me...I want to know who you are asking and why?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Ever since the election, which was 99% about gay marriage, since gay marriage is such an important part of Bush's second term agenda......still waiting for him to do something......didn't he talk about an amendment......hrmm, you think maybe he was pretending that it was important to him...Anywho, it occured to me that there is a great disconnect in this country between who and what constitutes a marriage.I asked people who were against gay marriage why? They replied that they didn't want their church to be forced to support something it felt was morally wrong.But there's the problem right there.You are not married by a church. You are not married by a priest.You are married by filling out a marriage license.Yet, religious people contend that "marriage" is what happens in the church.Here's the obvious solution. Do not all any state to marry anyone. All states switch enmasse to civil unions. All benifits legally afforded to marriage switch to civil unions.If you want to get "married" in a church, you can do so. It doesn't mean anything legally, but if it feels good, go ahead.

Hi Nuggin,Thanks for your reply...Care to answer any of the questions I posed? This is not a political topic... it's about "why and when would you enter such a union?"I'm interested to know what you think.Thanks!
Ben

They are for establishing a legal framework of rights and obligations. Initially custom, IMHO, but later the people realize the social and legal ramifications. Ideally by making an informed decision, but that is something that seldom happens in my experience. I would imagine that the decision to enter one is usually driven by fantasy.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I would like to be married some day. I would like that when I introduce Mr. X to people as my spouse there'd be no question about how important of a person he is in my life. I'd like that there's no question with our families that we are committed to being together for the rest of our lives. I would like that if there was a medical emergency with either of us the other one merely has to speak the magic word 'spouse' and we are granted the equivalent of power of attorney without any need for paperwork or lawyers to get involved. I would like that if I want to add him to my insurance policy, or vice versa, there'd be nothing more to do than say 'spouse' and write the check. I'd like that if I want to add Mr. X to a credit card all I'll have to is say 'spouse' and it will happen. I'd like that when we have children of our own that there will never be any interference from my family if something should happen to me so long as he's alive.I'd like all of that.Speaking of which, I actually know a guy that had been with his partner for at least 7 years. Suddenly, the partner died and the family took the house. Some enter them for tradition, some for family alliances (arranged), some for power, some for lust, some for spur of the moment, some to show the world that they have found their soulmates, some to be able to commit infidelity (like Swaggart), and some simply want to enter them just for the sake of being able to get a divorce later on. You'd have to ask Rush Limbaugh (sp?) for that last one there. Who cares? What I like about marriage isn't threatened by bitter people who think that love in marriage is a joke. What I like about marriage isn't affected by people who think that marriage is a sacred thing ordained by God. What I like about marriage isn't threatened by the happiness or unhappiness, success or failure of anyone else's marriage. Some people get married for the shallowest reasons, others because they truly love the person they're with, others only because they think they love the person and they'll learn the hard way they don't - but my marriage won't be affected by any of that. It will be *MY* marriage, underwent for reasons important to me and my spouse, and whether anyone else agrees with our reasons won't mean a thing to us because we'd want to get married, period.WIth that said, how the hell can anyone argue that it's rational and right to deny those privilege to any consenting adult who wants to make that sort of statement for *his* reasons is beyond me. It's not your life, it doesn't do anything to you, but to continue to deny that privilege to people, like me, who just want the same basic civil rights as the rest of you sure as hell does do something to them and not for their betterment.

Anybody who is trying to decide whether or not to do it!I guess the OP isn't very clear; I'm looking for personal thoughts about how you PERSONALLY think about unions for YOURSELF. That's all..How would you figure out whether to enter a union with somebody, Lam?

Hi Jar,I edited the opening post to try to clarify my questions. i'm not really interested in the "idea" of unions, but rather how different people here think about them and would make decisions about them. I'm basically looking for different ways of thinking about marriage to a person and different decision-making processes. Not as a prescriptive "do this" idea, but as a "this is how I decided to enter a union" or "this is how I think I would make my decision" kind of thing.Sorry about that. Here's some questions that would help me: What does it mean, "informed decision"? What are the things we should make sure we're informed about? OK, but you think we should be informed. So if we're informed, what are the questions that need to be asked in order to make a good decision?

That's easy. All you need to know is the future.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

As someone who was in a 17 year marriage that was NOT entered into with an informed decision... How does the other person HONESTLY feel about:
1. their family
2. your family
3. a family together (kids)
4. their friends
5. your friends
6. religion
7. politics
8. education
9. hobbies
10. money (charity, affluence, happy in a hovel, materialistic?)
11. living will issuesI'm not saying that you need to agree about any of these issues, or that these feelings won't possibly change in the future, but they ARE very important in understanding how you will get along.If you don't know the answer to all of these, (and/or not sure if the other person knows), then you are not ready for a commitment.I know, takes all the romance out of it You don't have to necessarily sit down and logically work through these questions, but they are things that should have at least come up in conversation at one time or another.AbE (as to your initial comment about not reading too much into this question....you KNOW we are )This message has been edited by Asgara, 12-16-2005 07:11 PM

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Asgara
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Sounds reasonable to me.What's the use of marriage, though? You can understand all these things while living together. What's the difference between a commitment to stick together and actually getting married?Maybe it's a mental thing. But it doesn't work for me, I think. A committment is a commitment. Maybe marriage is about making the commitment public, to give extra ... pressure to fufill it? That never worked for me, but ... maybe that's what it's for?--Puzzled in San Diego

The purpose of marriage is to develop affection. You have affection for your wife. She has affection for you.

A commitment to stick together carries none of the legal rights or obligations of a marriage. Try to get Family Health Insurance for the person you're committed to. Or see what the courts say about inheritance. Try to adopt a child with the person you're committed to. Try to establish alimony or child support when you and that person break up.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I've been in both long term relationships (which just as well could have been in marriage) and am now in a civil union (as opposed to a marriage though gets the same benefits). Thus I've kind of seen both sides.Here are my ideas of what goes into a decision, though they are not in order of importance.1) Are there legal/economic benefits which make such a union more beneficial than simply living together?2) Do those benefits outweigh the problems that might arise in trying to get out of that legal arrangement later?3) Does my partner want to "get married" or in some way legally "united" for emotional reasons? That is to say is that something within their character that will make them happy?4) Will the resulting unhappiness of my being in a social institution I disagree with end up spoiling the happiness of my partner?Obviously someone from a different perspective may ask how much happiness they themselves would get, and perhaps how much unhappiness it would cause their partner.I found dutch marriage laws, with three levels of relationship recognition quite progressive and useful. It makes choosing easier as the questions can fit more with one's lifestyle and perhaps point to issues within the relationship.For example if your partner insists marriage is the only way, and you feel that is too much but would like a union, there is a significant issue between those partners.Hope that helps.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)