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Author Topic:   Al Gore, the Internet, and the Gullibility of the Populace
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 1 of 58 (196544)
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


In Message 26 of the Pope condolences thread, Ben writes:
quote:
He took AN initiative in creating the internet.
No, he took THE initiative. It was directly because of Al Gore that ARPANet was expanded to commercial use. It was directly because of Al Gore that anybody ever thought that this might be useful for something other than military use. It was Al Gore who went around giving speeches about the importance of technology and a new economy.
quote:
PLUS it's misleading. Many people would assume that "the initiative" would refer to the actual technical side of it
Huh? A reporter asks a political representative a political question and receives a political answer and suddenly you think they're talking about the technical side of things? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
quote:
Gore's gotta know better than that (especially if he wanted to be our 'fearless leader').
Apparently he had higher expectations of people's intelligence.
quote:
So, no, it's NOT literally word for word true.
Except that it is. It is literally, word-for-word true. The Internet would not exist as we know it today were it not for Al Gore.
If the person who actually coded the protocols for the Internet says that Gore is responsible for creating what we know as the Internet today, then I think that's a good enough standard.
From the words of Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf, the persons who actually programmed the networking protocol:
Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development.
No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community. But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President. No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.
Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role. He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet." We don't think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and promoting the Internet long before most people were listening. We feel it is timely to offer our perspective.
As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high speed computing and communication. As an example, he sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural disasters and other crises.
As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into an "Interagency Network." Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush's administrations, Gore secured the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in 1991. This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.
As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today, approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation.
There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet's rapid growth since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political support for its privatization and continued support for research in advanced networking technology. No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large.
The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of the value of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world.
Now if they think that Al Gore is the one who was responsible for you having the Internet, who are you to contradict them?
This message has been edited by Rrhain, 04-03-2005 07:21 PM

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Monk, posted 04-03-2005 11:00 PM Rrhain has replied
 Message 4 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-04-2005 6:33 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 5 by Ben!, posted 04-04-2005 6:57 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 6 by contracycle, posted 04-04-2005 8:46 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 28 by Trae, posted 04-08-2005 10:55 PM Rrhain has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3943 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 2 of 58 (196576)
04-03-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


So we go from Al’s recorded transcript on CNN where he states I took the initiative in creating the Internet. To your interpretation ..the Internet would not exist as we know it today were it not for Al Gore.
The internet would not exist as we know it today without a great multitude of people. Not the least of which the American tax payer via R&D research grants to the private sector.
As I posted in God Bless John Paul II thread:
Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET was started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976.
You can mince words as much as you like, but those are the facts. I found humor in his CNN interview with Blitzer because of the facts listed above and the incongruity of Al's straight faced delivery.
This message has been edited by Monk, Sun, 04-03-2005 09:12 PM

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 04-03-2005 8:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2005 12:30 AM Monk has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 3 of 58 (196583)
04-04-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Monk
04-03-2005 11:00 PM


Monk responds to me:
quote:
So we go from Al’s recorded transcript on CNN where he states I took the initiative in creating the Internet. To your interpretation ..the Internet would not exist as we know it today were it not for Al Gore.
No, this is not my interpretation. That is what Gore meant. That is what the people who actually programmed the networking protocols for the Internet understood him to mean. What do you think the sentence:
We don't think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet.
means? Does that sound like what someone who thinks Gore was trying to steal his thunder would say?
Everybody involved in this seems to understand what Gore meant except you. Why do you think that is?
quote:
The internet would not exist as we know it today without a great multitude of people.
Of course. Didn't you read the quote I provided?
No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community.
What do you think that means? They wrote the protocols and they understand that there were lots of people who were involved in getting the system from where it was to where it is.
Everybody involved in this seems to understand what Gore meant except you. Why do you think that is?
quote:
Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET was started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976.
Irrelevant. Nobody said that he introduced any bill that resulted in the creation of ARPANet. We're talking about the Internet, not ARPANet. Didn't you read the quote I provided?
Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983.
Does that sound like the kind of thing someone would say if he thought Gore was involved from the very beginning? Does that sound like the kind of thing someone would say if he thought he was involved from the very beginning?
Everybody involved in this seems to understand what Gore meant except you. Why do you think that is?
quote:
You can mince words as much as you like, but those are the facts.
Indeed.
However, one fact you do not have in evidence is this cockamamie idea that Gore was trying to say that he, and he alone, was involved with the programming of the network protocols for the modern Internet.
Instead, he said that through his work in Congress, he took the initiative in doing what Senators do that would result in the transformation of the ARPANet into what we now know as the Internet.
When did that happen? Did you read my quote? It says.
What specific legislation was Gore instrumental in getting passed that would allow it to happen? Did you read my quote? It says.
It even bears his name in common parlance.
And then you come along and hear a politician being asked about his political activities and making a political claim and insist that somehow he's talking not about politics, but about code.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Everybody involved in this seems to understand what Gore meant except you. Why do you think that is?
quote:
I found humor in his CNN interview with Blitzer because of the facts listed above and the incongruity of Al's straight faced delivery.
But Gore didn't say what you seem to think he was trying to say. He said something very different.
Everybody involved in this seems to understand what Gore meant except you. Why do you think that is?
If the people whose thunder he was supposedly stealing don't think he was trying to steal it, who are you to say that he was?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Monk, posted 04-03-2005 11:00 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Monk, posted 04-04-2005 9:37 AM Rrhain has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3944
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 4 of 58 (196624)
04-04-2005 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


A POTM except for one little oversight?
Love the message, especially the content of that big blue quote box. But that quotation should have source information beyond "From the words of Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf, the persons who actually programmed the networking protocol:".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 04-03-2005 8:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 4:44 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1417 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 5 of 58 (196626)
04-04-2005 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


Rrhain,
Thanks for taking your time in writing this up.
Am I getting this right?
It wasn't Al Gore's vision or initiative that was directly responsible for inventing "internets" (i.e. the idea of connecting computers using some (here unspecified) architecture).
It wasn't Al Gore's vision or initiative that was directly responsible for inventing "an internet" (i.e. ARPANet, related systems?).
It WAS Al Gore's initiative that brought about the idea of THE Internet "as we know it today" (you said "It was directly because of Al Gore that anybody ever thought that this might be useful for something other than military use.").
I didn't know that Al Gore was responsible for these things. Good to know. Way to go Gore.
Thanks for the information and taking the time to write it up.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 04-03-2005 8:17 PM Rrhain has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 58 (196636)
04-04-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
04-03-2005 8:17 PM


quote:
No, he took THE initiative. It was directly because of Al Gore that ARPANet was expanded to commercial use.
... which is totally trivial. In the first place, it was happening anyway - the internet structures such as .com and .edu indicated that the net had already expanded to commercial and educational institutions. Admittedly it had done so as a branch of its military role, but the whole design of the internet made it useful for all sorts of things.
quote:
Except that it is. It is literally, word-for-word true. The Internet would not exist as we know it today were it not for Al Gore.
Nonsense. If anyone is to take credit for the net "as we know it today", it is Sir Timothy Berners-Lee, who invented hypertext, or HTTP, at CERN. Thus, 99% of what is actually *experienced* on the web "as we know it today" is directly traceable to Berners-Lee, not Gore.
The need for a packet-switching network was established by experiment in 1965 by Lawrence Roberts, and this technology was included in the plan for ARPANET drawn up in '67. And ALL of the internet is implicit in packet-switching.
It is misleading to describe Kahn and Cirf as inventors of "the networking protocol", because there are many such protocols. Specifically the developed the packet-switching concept to full TCP/IP as we have it today. But this most certainly does not give them
credibility to ascribe this to Gore.
Gore can be given credit for recognising the potential of the internet, although in this he was unusual only among politicians. Everyone in the industry knew that it was going to break, and it duly did. Gor is a bit part player, IMO.
quote:
Huh? A reporter asks a political representative a political question and receives a political answer and suddenly you think they're talking about the technical side of things? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
It makes plenty of sense - becuase Gore was, at the most charitable, foolish to have used the word "invent". He claimed creation, but what he gave was belated support. This claim has rightly damaged Gore's credibility, because it looks far more like bombast than that he knows what he is talking about. If I claimed to INVENT the telephone, you would expect me to have invented the telephone, rather than to have merely said it was a good thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 04-03-2005 8:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:17 AM contracycle has replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3943 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 7 of 58 (196642)
04-04-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rrhain
04-04-2005 12:30 AM


Rrhain writes:
But Gore didn't say what you seem to think he was trying to say. He said something very different.
Instead, he said that through his work in Congress, he took the initiative in doing what Senators do that would result in the transformation of the ARPANet into what we now know as the Internet.
You know its funny. When believers are accused of interpretating the Bible rather than defending direct quotes, they are lambasted for twisting its meaning to suite their particular needs. But it seems ok for atheist, such as yourself, to do it outside of the Bible.
But I must thank you Rrhain for the joy and laughter you bring to me with your Al Gore post. As I have said previously, keep saying to yourself what sounds good in your mind, avoid the facts, and it will sound better each time.
Ok let’s try another chant; Al won in 2000, Al won in 2000.... keep saying that and maybe the results will change.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2005 12:30 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 04-04-2005 4:12 PM Monk has replied
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2005 4:41 PM Monk has not replied
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 04-08-2005 5:28 AM Monk has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 58 (196699)
04-04-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Monk
04-04-2005 9:37 AM


Not to sound like I'm defending Rrhain (which I'm not), but all your responses to him so far have been the equivalent of "yo ma ma".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Monk, posted 04-04-2005 9:37 AM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 04-04-2005 4:26 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 11 by Monk, posted 04-04-2005 5:20 PM coffee_addict has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 58 (196700)
04-04-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by coffee_addict
04-04-2005 4:12 PM


Actually, Monk's first post in this thread does seem to be a legitimate attempt to answer Rrhain.
His last one, though, makes it clear that he cannot actually counter Rrhain's point but is unwilling to concede defeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 04-04-2005 4:12 PM coffee_addict has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 58 (196701)
04-04-2005 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Monk
04-04-2005 9:37 AM


As I have said previously, keep saying to yourself what sounds good in your mind, avoid the facts, and it will sound better each time.
Not to quibble, but I've been reading your posts, and the funny thing is, you never present any facts for him to avoid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Monk, posted 04-04-2005 9:37 AM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by joshua221, posted 04-04-2005 5:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3943 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 11 of 58 (196705)
04-04-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by coffee_addict
04-04-2005 4:12 PM


True, I should have linked to my thread number 15 in God Bless John Paul II, but the UBB code on how to do that escapes me at the moment.
Anyway, in that thread I referenced the CNN interview where Al says that he took the initiative in creating the internet. There was a reference in that thread regarding Al saying he invented the internet which Rrhain correctly noted he did not say. I simply added the reference as to what Al actually did say.
As I noted in that thread, I saw the interview myself and thought it was humorous in light of the facts. Al Gore was not yet in Congress in 1969 when ARPANET was started or in 1974 when the term Internet first came into use. Gore was elected to Congress in 1976.
So when Al says: I took the initiative in creating the internet, it sounds bombastic.
Since then, Rrhain has made it his cause to interpret what Al did or did not intend when he said those words.
I believe contracycle summed it up best when he said:
quote:
He claimed creation, but what he gave was belated support. This claim has rightly damaged Gore's credibility, because it looks far more like bombast than that he knows what he is talking about. If I claimed to INVENT the telephone, you would expect me to have invented the telephone, rather than to have merely said it was a good thing.
That’s how it struck me when I saw the interview.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 04-04-2005 4:12 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 04-04-2005 10:29 PM Monk has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 58 (196711)
04-04-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
04-04-2005 4:41 PM


quote:
you never present any facts for him to avoid.
Monk has been referring to the "facts" in the transcript in one of his previous posts.

The escape exists within ourselves, not within the bank account's numbers of papers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2005 4:41 PM crashfrog has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 58 (196772)
04-04-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Monk
04-04-2005 5:20 PM


Monk writes:
There was a reference in that thread regarding Al saying he invented the internet which Rrhain correctly noted he did not say.
I went to the CNN page, pressed Ctrl-F, and tried to find the word "invented" and "invent" but couldn't find any. Mind giving me a little more detail?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Monk, posted 04-04-2005 5:20 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 12:30 AM coffee_addict has replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3943 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 14 of 58 (196803)
04-05-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
04-04-2005 10:29 PM


The thread I was referring to was Here beginning at Rrhains message 11

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 04-04-2005 10:29 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-05-2005 1:16 AM Monk has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 58 (196812)
04-05-2005 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Monk
04-05-2005 12:30 AM


Ok, so it is now an established fact that Al Gore never said he invented the internet. So... what's our problem here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 12:30 AM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
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