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Author Topic:   I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1 of 57 (51790)
08-22-2003 9:28 AM


Dumb title, most likely, since probably no one does. But anyway, has anyone been able to make sense of recent events.
  • Hamas and Islamic Jihad agree to a cease fire while peace efforts attempt to move forward. There are a couple minor bombings, but nothing major, and peace talks proceed slowly forward.
  • Then there's a major bombing attack on a bus killing 14 and injuring around a hundred, and both Hamas and Islamic Jihad take credit.
  • Israel retaliates by murdering a Hamas officer and his two body guards.
  • Hamas and Islamic Jihad say that Israel's actions have invalidated the cease fire.
How can this make sense, even to Palestinians, that Israel broke the cease fire? How can it make sense, even to Palestinians, to equate the murder of a Hamas officer to the murder of civilians on a bus?
I'm not sure what Hamas's and Islamic Jihad's goals are, but it seems readily apparent that they don't want peace. Every time peace gets uncomfortably close they bomb something and any progress towards peace halts. I wish the Palestinians and the Israelis would simply decide to keep moving forward on peace no matter what.
Just my simplistic view of things.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Parasomnium, posted 08-22-2003 9:39 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 4 by Silent H, posted 08-22-2003 1:34 PM Percy has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 2 of 57 (51795)
08-22-2003 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
08-22-2003 9:28 AM


It could be that neither Hamas nor Islamic Jihad are unified groups. If, within either group, there is a faction of extremists with access to weapons and explosives and they decide to send out some blind fool to play the martyr by blowing himself up and taking a dozen or so civilians with him, then who is to stop them?
The questions remains of course, why do they claim these attrocities?
------------------
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas N. Adams

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 57 (51802)
08-22-2003 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Parasomnium
08-22-2003 9:39 AM


I think that's exactly it. Terrorist groups (or Resistance Organisations) tend to operate on a cell structure for security. But rogue cells can be disowned, so the Hamas leadership were still nuts to claim responsibility,if they really wanted peace.
I suspect that much of Hamas - like the Israeli far Right - does not want any peace short of killing or driving out everyone on hte "other" side.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 57 (51852)
08-22-2003 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
08-22-2003 9:28 AM


percipient writes:
How can this make sense, even to Palestinians, that Israel broke the cease fire? How can it make sense, even to Palestinians, to equate the murder of a Hamas officer to the murder of civilians on a bus?
Well first of all your timeline is incorrect, or at least not fully fleshed out.
In between the cease fire and the bus bombing there were several roundups of palestinians by Israelis, at least one if not two killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces, and at least two backslides on promises made by Israelis to Abbas which helped secure the cease fire in the first place (not to mention being part of the road map).
Hamas and Jihad made it very clear in every action they took, including the bus bombing, that it was a retaliation for an aggressive, usually deadly action taken by Israel.
The reason that the murder of a Hamas "officer" and his bodyguards is equatable to the murder of other innocent civilians (of course not in body count) is that that "officer" as you put it was a POLITICAL officer.
There is a huge difference between political and military wings of those organizations. To make matters even more insane is that this "officer" was actually one of the moderates likely to continue negotiations. Check with Reuters if you don't believe me.
What I don't get is how any rational person, with adequate access to full news media resources cannot see that Arial Sharon is a madman bent (at the very least) on the murder of all of his old rivals, if not the total oppression of the Palestinian people.
This guy was bad news for decades. His whole modus operandi is making odioys and violent "pre-emptive" attacks on Palestinians... killing many innocents... then blaming them for any retaliations.
Hey, if the palestinians get pricked do they not bleed? If they are attacked do they not revenge? The story is as old as that area of the world.
Unfortunately in this case the cycle of violence has a major proponent and that is Sharon. Sure Hamas and Jihad are a bunch of a-holes, but Sharon is the true obstacle to peace here as he does more to recruit members of those organization from Palestinian moderates than any of their actions could.
That said, I agree with you. I am sick of all the death. I wish Hamas and Jihad would realize the value in not blowing up other people. Hell if they are willing to die for their cause, why not be martyrs WITHOUT innocent blood on their hands? Build a monument to all the innocent Palestinians Sharon keeps killing every time he gets a ceasefire or a nondeclared cessation of violence from Hamas and Jihad.
percipient writes:
Every time peace gets uncomfortably close they bomb something and any progress towards peace halts. I wish the Palestinians and the Israelis would simply decide to keep moving forward on peace no matter what.
Actually it is every time that there has not been an attack by Palestinians, that Sharon runs his troops in to target assassinate or roundup Palestinians. Just check the bodycount figures since the beginning of the intifada. You will see gaps and then a sudden attack by Israel (pre-emptive or delivering justice) followed by renewed violence by terrorist groups.
Sharon is the master of upsetting (and murdering) Palestinians for his own agenda.
By the way the Palestinians have agreed to move peace forward no matter what. It is Sharon who has announced that peace cannot move forward without a cessation of violence and then attacks Palestinians and claims that his violence doesn't count. Hell it was one of his buddies that announced after their reluctant acceptance of the current Roadmap that the only reason they signed on is because it would be impossible for the Palestinians to succeed on their part.
Am I getting some news source no one else is able to get? I mainly go to Reuters, and AP.
Or how about some histories of Sharon? Has no one read about the attrocities this man has commited? I totally agree that it doesn't absolve any terrorist actions by Hamas and Jihad, but it should certainly make one rethink who the real problem is in this equation.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 08-22-2003 9:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 08-22-2003 3:14 PM Silent H has replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 5 of 57 (51867)
08-22-2003 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
08-22-2003 1:34 PM


holmes writes:
In between the cease fire and the bus bombing there were several roundups of palestinians by Israelis, at least one if not two killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces, and at least two backslides on promises made by Israelis to Abbas which helped secure the cease fire in the first place (not to mention being part of the road map).
What were the backslides?
What I don't get is how any rational person, with adequate access to full news media resources cannot see that Arial Sharon is a madman bent (at the very least) on the murder of all of his old rivals, if not the total oppression of the Palestinian people.
Here's a rough timeline of recent events that includes the roundups and murders of Palestinians you mention. It isn't complete, just tries to hit the significant events, but feel free to fill in any meaningful holes you find. But I think this is largely correct, and it doesn't seem to reveal any pattern that would lead one to your conclusion:
May 19 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills 3.
June 2 - Israeli forces kill Palestinian police officer.
June 8 - Palestinians kill 4 Israeli soldiers.
June 12 - Israeli helicopter gunship kills 7 Palestinians.
June 13 - Israeli airstrike kills Fuad al-Lithouwee, a Hamas militant, and wounds 25.
June 21 - Israeli troops kill senior Hamas leader Abdullah Kawasme.
June 24 - Israel rounds up 154 Palestinians in response to recent suicide attacks.
June 25 - Hamas and Islamic Jihad announce cease-fire.
June 30 - Members of the Palestinian group Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades killed an Israeli constuction worker.
July 2 - Israeli troops kill Mahmoud Ahmad Shawar, a local head of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in a gun battle.
July 3 - Israel releases Colonel Suleiman Abu Mutlaq, a senior Palestinian security official, from jail.
August 6 - Israel frees 339 Palestinian prisoners.
August 8 - 4 Palestinians and 1 Israeli soldier killed in gun battle.
August 12 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills 2 Israelis.
August 14 - Israel kills Mohammed Seder, local head of Islamic Jihad's armed wing.
August 19 - Palestinian bomber on bus kills 20 Israelis.
August 21 - Israel kills Ismail Abu Shanab, a Hamas political operative, and two body guards.
What are the missing Sharon actions that indicate he doesn't want peace?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Silent H, posted 08-22-2003 1:34 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 08-23-2003 5:36 PM Percy has replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 57 (51888)
08-22-2003 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
08-22-2003 1:34 PM


What I don't get is how any rational person, with adequate access to full news media resources cannot see that Arial Sharon is a madman bent (at the very least) on the murder of all of his old rivals, if not the total oppression of the Palestinian people
...
Or how about some histories of Sharon? Has no one read about the attrocities this man has commited? I totally agree that it doesn't absolve any terrorist actions by Hamas and Jihad, but it should certainly make one rethink who the real problem is in this equation.
According to United Press International's newspaper article on September 7, 2001, the Hague Tribunal seeks Sharon for trial for his part in massacres at Chatila and Sabra. He won't travel to Belgium for this very reason.
On February 16th, 2001, in an Israeli newspaper called Ha'aretz (By Levy Gideon (Article number - 869933 , 3250 Words )), a witness recalls Sharon leading a massacre in a village called Kibya in 1953: "The soldiers of Major Ariel Sharon killed 70 Palestinians in the reprisal raid, most of them women and children."
Basically, I agree with you.
------------------
quote:
All the boys think she's a spy
, 08-22-2003

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Silent H, posted 08-22-2003 1:34 PM Silent H has not replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 57 (51927)
08-22-2003 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
08-22-2003 4:53 PM


Hi, Agent!
On February 16th, 2001, in an Israeli newspaper called Ha'aretz (By Levy Gideon (Article number - 869933 , 3250 Words )), a witness recalls Sharon leading a massacre in a village called Kibya in 1953: "The soldiers of Major Ariel Sharon killed 70 Palestinians in the reprisal raid, most of them women and children."
It wouldn't surprise me if Sharon was a terrorist. So was Menachem Begun. But that's not the topic of the thread.
According to United Press International's newspaper article on September 7, 2001, the Hague Tribunal seeks Sharon for trial for his part in massacres at Chatila and Sabra. He won't travel to Belgium for this very reason.
What's your source for this? The Hague is in the Netherlands, not Belgium. This article from CNN says it was actually a ruling by The Hague that called the Belgium court's position into question. And Sharon's role was that he was the Israeli defense minister at the time.
The topic of the thread, the ambiguous title notwithstanding, is how Hamas and Islamic Jihad justify their position that Israel broke the cease fire. The reason being advanced by Holmes isn't that it's because Sharon used to be a terrorist, but that he is still behaving like a terrorist, and that it provoked Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad into the bus bombing. But I haven't seen any evidence of this.
To me Hamas's and Islamic Jihad's position seems irrational, and it seems incredible to me that even Palestinians could buy it. But maybe I'm not in possession of all the facts. So fill me in and relieve my ignorance.
--Percy

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 57 (51989)
08-23-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
08-22-2003 3:14 PM


See now this I just don't get. You ask me what were the backslides? Are you kidding? And I am not saying this sarcastically.
Whether you or I consider them serious backslides--- or serious enough to warrant an end to the peace process--- it was all over the news what THEY considered backslides. And by THEY I do not just mean the terrorist organizations. I mean the Palestinians. I might add that it also included some within the US administration.
The backslides were:
1) continuing to build the wall between Israel and Palestine, especially in a way that protects the very lands in dispute, including settlements that were supposed to be getting torn down.
2) after making a big show of tearing down a handful of the smallest illegal Israeli settlements, Sharon allowed and encouraged the building of even MORE new settlements. This was talked about with pride by far right Israelis and shame from moderate and liberal Israelis. It was castigated by everyone else in the world watching the events unfold.
3) you mention Sharon releases 339 prisoners, plus one leader. Did you not read anything else about this where you got that data? It was far less than were supposed to be released. Sharon has rounded up thousands of Palestinians. In fact the number of children (under 13) who have been illegally detained and kept indefinitely without ability to contact a lawyer or family, and only recently began getting needed food and medicine number in the high 100's. While I agree with Bush's assessment that real prisoners with blood on their hands should not be released, clearly the number released did not reflect that policy. Again, it was well publicized that even moderate Palestinians were upset with this "release" which was essentially a slap in the face to all those who used it to broker a peace.
Your timeline, while perhaps accurate in date and number, again fails to flesh out the meaning of events with other facts. In addition, I believe it is missing a few points as well, unfortunately right now is one of the worst times for me to be wandering around and fact checking your list. For the sake of argument at this time I will accept your timeline.
First of all let me point out you start your list with a palestinian terrorist act. I'm not sure why you started there when the process of tit for tat has been going on for well over a year now. In fact it started right after Sharon rose to power on the pretext of quelling Palestinian riots he engineered, and shot some people dead.
The only appropriate point for our discussion at this time is the announcement of the cease fire.
June 25 - Hamas and Islamic Jihad announce cease-fire. [unmentioned: this was a ceasefire brokered by Abbas on conditions that Israel stop targeted killings and adhere to the roadmap which involved dismantling settlements, ending construction of the wall, and release of political prisoners]
June 30 - Members of the Palestinian group Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades killed an Israeli constuction worker. [unmentioned: This incident was not related to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and was eventually decided not to have been from Al Aqsa proper either. It was some lunatic splinter faction within Al Aqsa and denounced by pretty much everyone including Al Aqsa, ultimately written off as a side event which should not hinder either side from continued progress.]
July 2 - Israeli troops kill Mahmoud Ahmad Shawar, a local head of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in a gun battle. [unmentioned: This is a move by the Israeli government, not some lunatic fringe splinter faction. It was Sharon making another "pre-emptive" strike which is notorious for upsetting Palestinians, particularly the ones most likely to respond with hostility. It is the modus operandi he has used throughout his entire life.]
July 3 - Israel releases Colonel Suleiman Abu Mutlaq, a senior Palestinian security official, from jail. [unmentioned: this is not a terrorist but a security official who may or may not have had links to terrorists. Too bad Israel is unable to release all of the completely innocent security officials it has KILLED over the last couple of years, for no apparent reason and which has prevented moderate Palestinian forces from exerting any control over extremists]
August 6 - Israel frees 339 Palestinian prisoners.[unmentioned: this move was late in coming and well under the number expected by the Roadmap. While I guess anyone should be glad that people were freed, to think this was a great gesture is to ignore the facts. There are thousands more, including many hundreds of children, which were not released, adding insult to injury. This was nothing more than a slap in the face to Hamas and Jihad, and a slitting of Abbas's throat while sending him back to deal with those factions.]
August 8 - 4 Palestinians and 1 Israeli soldier killed in gun battle. [unmentioned: this is the first retaliation by either Hamas or Jihad since the cease fire. It comes after Sharon has killed a Palestinian resistance leader, and slid backward on settlements, the wall, and the release of prisoners. I am not saying this justifies anything, but this is the reason why people got upset and did what they did. IF Sharon had stuck with the Roadmap, and especially if he had not gone on more sweeps and killed a Palestinian during the CEASE FIRE, this attack would not have likely taken place.]
August 12 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills 2 Israelis. [unmentioned: I believe there were more Israeli incursions before this, but either way it is still an extension of the first attack above.]
August 14 - Israel kills Mohammed Seder, local head of Islamic Jihad's armed wing.
August 19 - Palestinian bomber on bus kills 20 Israelis.[unmentioned: is this not obviously a return to the cycle of violence?]
August 21 - Israel kills Ismail Abu Shanab, a Hamas political operative, and two body guards. [unmentioned: hmmmm, first "officer" now "operative"? The guys was a politician. He was nonmilitary. That means CIVILIAN. ONLY ISRAEL regards this man as a terrorist, even international intelligence agencies have come out saying this killing was unwarranted and only likely to provoke a hostile response, In addition the man was a moderate. This means Sharon decided to have Israeli forces murder a man likely to keep Hamas and Jihad at a negotiating table instead of on the streets with bombs, while directly taunting them to do just that. It was at this point that Hamas and Jihad could not pretend they were in some sort of ceasefire at all. Isreal had moved from killing militants to citizens.]
I am not sure how any of these facts escaped a person who calls himself percipient.
I am beginning to believe you are a Sharon apologist/sympathizer. Anyone that could answer Agent Uranium's* post listing just ONE of Sharon's many atrocities by saying he was only reponsible because he was defense minister is clearly not looking for the truth. He was tossed out of the position as well as other positions by angering Isaelis themselves with his Nazi-like brutality against Palestinians. Make no mistake the man was in charge. If you don't like the events Agent Uranium* listed just go to a history of Sharon, there are more to be found.
You do know it was a Jewish extremist following Sharon's diatribes that killed Rabin, right? Not a Palestinian? When it looked like peace was at hand Sharon accused Rabin of treason (for being willing to give Palestinians some land) and all but said "he must be killed." His implied orders were followed. he did not regret this particular Jew being killed. In fact he has not even considered it a terrorist act.
You really do not need me to tell you all of this. It is right out there for anyone looking.
And by the way, while the UN court is in the Netherlands, it is Belgium that has (up until a month ago) had strict laws to detain and surrender to that court, anyone involved with genocide and warcrimes. That is why Sharon kept away from that country. He would have been caught and tried for his crimes.
I'm not saying that Hamas and Jihad are right. I'm only saying Sharon is just as great a terrorist as the heads of those organizations are and he is commited to keeping peace from happening to the same degree--- if not more because he has the real muscle--- than their most rightwing leaders.
Since you did a timeline for this, why not try making one from shortly before Sharon rose to power. Start with Barak, Clinton, and Arafat doing a three stooges number while trying to get through a door at a peace conference. At that point there was little to no violence going on at all.
Make sure to get the real details this time too, as in how each action affected the abilities and likelihood of every organization involved to reach peace.
Even Barak has said that Sharon engineered everything from then till now. We are witnessing his handiwork.
*indicates that name has been edited for correction... initial stupidity on my part.
------------------
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 08-22-2003 3:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 08-23-2003 6:08 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 12 by truthlover, posted 08-24-2003 3:23 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 08-24-2003 8:08 PM Silent H has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 57 (51995)
08-23-2003 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
08-23-2003 5:36 PM


If you don't like the events Crashfrog listed just go to a history of Sharon, there are more to be found.
I think you meant someone else, here. I'm far too ignorant to have an opinion on this topic.

This message is a reply to:
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Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 57 (52006)
08-23-2003 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
08-23-2003 6:08 PM


I think he might even have meant me!
------------------
quote:
All the boys think she's a spy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 08-23-2003 6:08 PM crashfrog has not replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 11 of 57 (52044)
08-24-2003 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
08-23-2003 10:54 PM


Yes I meant you Agent U. My apologies to both you and Crashfrog for the mixup. I've edited the post to avoid confusion for future readers.
What's weird is that this is not the first time this has happened. For some reason when I want to reference someone I find I have accidentally written Crashfrog. Normally I catch it, this time I didn't. I have absolutely no idea why my subconscious has such a fixation that I write that name. Maybe its because I have absolutely no idea what it means, or maybe its just been happening since crash put up that colorful avatar and so my mind latches on it first. Either way I'll try to watch my posts for this error in the future.
------------------
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-23-2003 10:54 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 12 of 57 (52046)
08-24-2003 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
08-23-2003 5:36 PM


I am beginning to believe you are a Sharon apologist/sympathizer.
Just for the record, as I read your posts and Percy's, it's not Percy who looks like a sympathizer. It looks like Percy's just looking at the facts, asking if there's something missing, and you're flipping out, because the only thought on your mind is getting Sharon out of the position he's in.
None of your "unmentioned" looked very pertinent to me.
I'm only up to message 8 of 11, so maybe something's different later, but as someone interested in this discussion, you're not getting your message across. It's clear to me you don't like Sharon, and you will put the worst possible interpretation on his actions, but there's nothing clear about what you're saying, except maybe to those who are totally informed on the Palestinian situation.
Maybe you could be a little more clear about when these "backslides" happened, and why you think the backslides are worse cause of violence that actual performance of violence that the Hamas did.
Also, it would help if when someone asks for information, you didn't reply with "You ask me what were the backslides? Are you kidding?" I don't think he was kidding, and I think his question was legitimate enough to warrant a plain response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 08-23-2003 5:36 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 13 of 57 (52065)
08-24-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
08-23-2003 5:36 PM


Hi Holmes!
I can tell you don't like Sharon. I have no strong feelings about him either way, but I don't think you've made your case that his actions were such as to justify the bus bombing.
But my original point was, to put it more generally, why Hamas and Islamic Jihad have any significant credibility with the Palestinians whose interests they supposedly have at heart. Their actions seem unlikely in the extreme to bring about peace. Whether you blame Israel or the Palestinians for the slow progress toward peace, extreme terrorist actions like the bus bombing can only be interpreted as overt attempts to destroy any progress towards peace, a peace that would bring great benefits to the Palestinian people, including possibly their own nation. In other words, to me it seems like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are working against the best interests of the Palestinian people, and I don't understand why the Palestinians as a people support these organizations.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 08-23-2003 5:36 PM Silent H has replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 57 (52068)
08-24-2003 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by truthlover
08-24-2003 3:23 PM


Thanks truthlover for slapping me around a bit. It is true that I get a little heated on this subject, but the reason is that the information is out there and has been for some time. And worse still it just keeps coming, yet no one seems to be doing anything about this guy.
Seriously it is almost exactly like watching Hitler coming to power in the 30's and victimizing jews and no one around seems to give a rats ass, or seem oblivious to the news coming out of that country.
The question percipient asked is how could palestinians buy claims by Hamas and Jihad that the murder of a politician was what broke the ceasefire when attacks by Hamas and Jihad were going on already.
As I tried to say in my response, and maybe it wasn't clear because of my anger... the answer to percipient's question is out there in the news every day.
I don't believe that Sharon's backsliding warranted attacks. I think Hamas and Jihad leaders are proving themselves totally inept for repeatedly stepping into the trap Sharon places for them.
Regardless of whether you or I or percipient believe these reasons are worth resorting to violence, they ARE the reasons that violent action is being taken. In the mindset of these people it is cause enough.
Furthermore it is known that Israeli actions are going to have these results. They do not bring security for anyone. They simply propagate violence.
That is why the US is Sharon's only ally at this point. Even Blair is critical of Sharon's policies. And I should add that the US as well chastised Israel for the attack which lead to the end of the ceasefire,
It is tit for tat which keeps this whole show going. Whenever there has been a break in violence Sharon has either target assassinated individuals (with resultant collateral damage) or run troops in to bulldoze communities or arrest many innocents in roundups which pushes Palestinians (including moderates) back to the edge, and the extremists right on over.
The timeframe percipient gave was stripped of its meaning, which was reported right along with the events (except maybe on Fox).
I am actually taken aback that people voice opinions on this subject yet have no clear understanding of the psychology and cultures in play here, especially as they are discussed as each event unfolds.
I cannot give you exact dates of backslides as they are without dates. During the timeframe mentioned, it was well publicized that while settlements were being torn down, others were being built with the encouragement of Sharon. This wasn't one date, it was and still is going on. It was also very well publicized that moderate Palestinians, including Abbas were outraged that Sharon was not going to release prisoners as he had promised.
And how could anyone not have heard about the wall being built to divide Israel from Palestine? Bush himself went on air to criticize this option as not being helpful. The well publicized fact that it protected the very settlements that were supposed to be dismantled should be pretty big clues as to what was happening, which is eerily reminiscent of Hitler's wall around the Jewish ghetto.
My question is if you have not heard of these things, how have you not heard of these things? What news sources do you use? As stated I usually use Reuters, AP, and sometimes CNN. Unfortunately I get a daily fix of Fox as well, but for real fair and balanced reporting Reuters and AP can't be beat.
It was percipient's dismissal of Sharon's involvement with a massacre which made me feel he was an apologist. The list of atrocities that Sharon has commited have been catalogued by Israelis as well as Palestinians, and number more than the two percy dismissed (using Sharon's pathetic excuse).
I encourage everyone to read some histories on the area. I had no idea what was what 3-4 years ago. I began doing research for a documentary on Israel and was floored by what I discovered, and it was right as Sharon was climbing back into power. To watch him restart his machine of death sickens me... which is why I get upset when other people can't see what's happening.
Anyway, keep an eye on Reuters and AP for some good coverage as it happens.
Right now you'll see that Sharon has just murdered four more leaders. And the government says it is going to keep killing people until the Palestinian government starts arresting people.
Can you see anything wrong with this strategy?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by truthlover, posted 08-24-2003 3:23 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by truthlover, posted 08-25-2003 12:47 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 15 of 57 (52073)
08-24-2003 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
08-24-2003 8:08 PM


Thanks for the polite response, I probably didn't deserve it.
I hate Sharon. However, I do not believe any of his actions JUSTIFIED the bus bombing. If I wasn't clear before, let me make it clear now, I did not feel that the bus bombing was justified. Neither were almost every single action Hamas or Jihad have undertaken.
The flip side of this is that the bus bombing did not justify the murder of a civilian, who on top of being innocent of any violent actions, was a moderate likely to promote peaceful resolutions.
But feeling something was not justified is vastly different from understanding why it happened and the thought process that went into it.
percipient writes:
But my original point was, to put it more generally, why Hamas and Islamic Jihad have any significant credibility with the Palestinians whose interests they supposedly have at heart.
This more general question is a good one given their history of failing the Palestinian people, but the answer should be obvious.
Let's start by getting some things straight. Hamas and Jihad are not the same organizations. They are also not the only organizations. There are numerous factions and splinter factions with varying goals within the Palestinian region.
The best way of thinking about this is if you've ever seen Monty Python's Life of Brian. The myriad Jewish organizations fighting each other while trying to fight the Roman occupation is just about dead on, with the only exception that Israel (unlike Rome) does nothing but destroy Palestinian infrastructure.
They are underground. No Palestinian votes for who leads all of these organizations, nor do they get a say in what those organizations do. Much like in Life of Brian I am sure many Palestinians shake their heads at what these organizations do, even if they happen to be in another organization making its own errors.
If it weren't so awful it might be comical.
I agree with you, and probably many Palestinians, in recognizing the waste and actual harm their activities cause.
Then again...
No matter how much the ordinary Palestinian may not like what one or another organization does, they might feel at least it is one of their guys getting back at the occupier.
This is why the answer should be pretty obvious. With all of our history from Jesus living under the occupation of Rome, to the colonists fighting the occupation of British forces, to most of Europe (including German Jews) fighting the occupation of Nazi forces... the activity and mindset of those under occupation are nearly the same.
When you get THEM, even if it wasn't going to get you any closer to real victory, at least it was a victory of some kind. They lost their battle for freedom and are left crushed, demoralized, and under full occupation (as Sharon has reminded them). What else is there to hope for? For some it is just about getting revenge where they can, because ultimately there is no hope.
I can only imagine if it was one of your kids starving in an Israeli prison, or blown to bits in a targeted assassination you wouldn't be thinking quite so clearly.
That's why it is going to take cooler heads to step back and out of that world. The start of which is to step outside of the cycle of violence. It is also going to take treating moderate Palestinians, separate from the extremists (those organizations which are bent on the total destruction of Israel).
Sharon and Bush's strategy has been to lump them all together. For example talking about Hamas and Jihad and Palestinians as if they are one and the same entity. Unfortunately it pushes all Palestinians into one camp, and that is the camp of terrorists. Coming from Sharon--- who has stated that all Palestinians are terrorists--- this should come as no surprise, but from Bush it is very very disappointing.
However this is another topic. Getting back to the one at hand, I do agree that almost all of these organizations (particularly their military wings) are as bad as the current Israeli government in finding solutions to their problems.
They are not seeking any way of extracting Palestinians from their plight, and have chosen... well... martyrdom. This is one of the ghastliest concepts ever created by man. Unfortunately thanks to the spread of monotheism it is all over the place, especially on both sides of this particular fight.
It seems to me that they should realize that they could always be a martyr without killing. After all that is what Jesus became, or perhaps the more contemporary victories of Ghandi could set an example of how to win without resorting to suicide attacks, getting killed in the process still leading to salvation.
But this is preaching to the choir I suspect. So let me take you in a different direction, and perhaps you will see why I have a problem in the way you phrased your questions.
Why does the Zionist far right of Israel (talking about political and terrorist groups) as well as Sharon's government, continue to have any credibility with Israelis and citizens of the US?
All of their actions have been unlikely in the extreme to bring about peace. Whether you blame Israelis or Palestinians for the slow progress toward peace, targeted assassinations and mass roundups of innocent civilians, especially after every cessation of violence on the part of major Palestinian organizations can only be interpreted as overt attempts to destroy any progress toward peace, a peace that would bring great benefits to the Israeli people (especially a secure and independent Israel).
Unfortunately that question does not exactly swing the same way back to the Palestinians. Sharon and the Zionist far right have said they never want to see a Palestinian state. Sharon at most says he could see it in theory, but not as a reality. So the promise that Palestinians might have peace and a country of their own--- if they allow themselves to keep getting stepped on--- is not very real. It will take a change in the Israeli government to bring this about.
I'm sure you get my drift though. Why are you so incredulous about the Palestinians when the exact same behavior is being exhibited by the Israelis (and the US) as well?
I think this is where the difference is. You see one side as naive or duped, while I see them both getting used. Sharon is a Zionist. He calls himself that. He is the exact counterpart to the radical Islamic terrorists fronting Hamas and Jihad. Their methods and goals are similar.
And if you want a tally, right now Sharon's organization has killed 2-3 times as many innocent people as the Islamic extremist organizations have. If you say that Sharon doesn't target civilians, my question is what's the difference if he knows he's going to and kils 2-3 times as many?
At least the Palestinians have a real excuse of living under an occupation which has left demoralized, for why they might lash out in anger first, and not necessarily recognize which organization is actually working for their best interest.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 08-24-2003 8:08 PM Percy has not replied

  
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