DHA's Wager

We have all heard of Pascal’s Wager, it’s better to believe in god because if you lose you just die but if you win its heaven.I would like to formalize the objections to this.DHA’s WagerSince most gods are described as vengeful about believing in other gods it’s better to not believe in any.You would at least have a leg to stand on when you came face to face with the fact that the Cult of the Great Apis Bull was right.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

One could also argue that it is better to have chosen a side rather than remaining neutral. It is like "you're damned if you don't and there is a 99% chance that you're damned if you do." If this is the case, one could argue that it is better to go with the choice with an infinitesimal chance than the choice with no chance.

The only ones sure to make it through are those with multiple personalities.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You misunderstood the premise behind the wager. Try re reading it.

I think he understood the premise of the P's wager, just not DHA's spin on it. I think maybe DHA could have made it a little clearer in that the options are now:1) Choose God, right (infinitely small chance but if right then saved)
2) Choose not to choose (guaranteed in bad standing but at least you aren't against god).
3) Choose God, wrong (high chance of happening if you choose at all and you are worse off because enemies of God are worse off than idiots who simply couldn't figure it out).By the way, excellent new avatar. This is definitely your best yet. Even if it's blurry when seen full size, in avater size it is really good. No one better give you a hard time on this one (or they'll piss off some God somewhere).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

You are right. Since most gods seem to be really pissed about believing in other gods if you do not profess a belief in any and one of them turns out to really exist, you can still plead ignorance, god knowing his creation should give you a break.Thanks for the comment on the Avatar. I'm slowly getting used to your new one.
Took about 2 hours to find on the web. Wanted Avatar to go with name.This message has been edited by DHA, 02-11-2005 14:36 AM

To really understand the issue we need to attach some odds:
For example:
Number of gods 100
odds of guarenteed salveation then are 1/100
If don't choose odds god will forgive that little error 50/50
If choose wrong odds a god will forgive that error 1/100 (there is one understanding one there).In this scenario not choosing gives you a 50/50 chance. Choosing gives you a 1/50 chance.Of course, as the number of gods goes up choosing becomes pretty risky.Let's twist it a bit more:
only 20 gods.
chance of being forgiven if you don't choose. 1/10 (2 nice guys there)
chance of being forgiven if you choose wrong 1/10 (same nice guys)if you choose odds are 1/4 of getting away with that.If you don't odds are only 1/10 so choosing is a good idea.In the orginal statment it seemed to imply that most gods were not to hostile to those who didn't choose But not forgiving if you did.In that scenario any number of gods more than one says don't choose.Thanks re the photo. That was just snapped with a hand held camera but i just got scanned copies of the proofs. (that one is one I'm likely to get a final copy of -- they are purely digital in the studio at 14 mega pix but I think the proofs are dersolutioned a lot).

Hi Ned, thanks for the input.Here's a restated version.1. Mankind has believed in thousands of gods.2. There is no way to be sure which is the right ones, they all have the same answered prayers and life-changing experiences.3. Many of there gods are very jealous , the greatest sin you can commit is to believe in another god.Therefore it is best to not believe any, then when you die, if there is an afterlife you can always claim ignorance if you find yourself in front of the wrong deityObviously, believers will claim that 2 is wrong. I'm going to give it a trial run on Christian Forum.I didn't consider putting numbers in, but they make the case even better.This debate thing is really addicting isn't it?

Agreed. I suppose though that perhaps "religion" is more important to use than "God".Certain religions have countless gods, and so they really don't stack up against each other (odds wise) since you are free to choose one or more with no issue. And on the opposite side of the fence you have on God with many different religions based on him, and they are almost all adverse to each other.Actually now that I think about it, there are only 3 religions, with various subreligions (denominations) which do NOT allow for the worship of other gods.As far as I remember (and I could be corrected on this) only the current monotheist cultures of judaism, christianity, and islam forbid the possibility of worshipping other gods (it is only their's which is jealous) and ironically though the same God, forbid the possibility of each other's religious system.So maybe this all boils down to:If you choose a monotheist religion: Base 1 in 3 chance of being right and saved (altered for the worse when denominations are added), base 2 in 3 chance of being damned forever with gnashing and wailing and all that.Not choosing: Guaranteed no place in heaven if there is a correct religion, but perhaps less gnashing and wailing and maybe even forgiveness.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Actually I was refering to Ned's avatar. He has caught hell for his avatars in the past (even though I thought they were okay) and I wanted to back him up on this one (as it is definitely a nice pic).Yours is a nice avatar, though I might suggest photoshopping out the "jubilee cut" section. That makes it look like an ad of come kind.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

humbly blushesreally did misunderstand.Photoshop?

Photoshop is an image editing software package. I know of no better editing professional editing software. Very powerful.In your case you could simply get by by cropping the image (cutting off the lower portion).Anyhow, that's all that needs to be said on this diversion from your thread.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

He's talking about doing something like this.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, any thoughts on the usefullness of the OP as restated.1. Mankind has believed in thousands of gods.2. There is no way to be sure which is the right one, they all have the same answered prayers and life-changing experiences.3. Many gods are very jealous , the greatest sin you can commit is to believe in another god.Therefore it is best to not believe any, then when you die, if there is an afterlife you can always claim ignorance if you find yourself in front of the wrong deity