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Author Topic:   An afterlife or no? You choose (for athiests and agnostics)
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 1 of 49 (285311)
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


Faced with the possibility of there being no afterlife of any description (the atheists are right) and an afterlife (the atheists somehow got it wrong) where you had no idea whether it was going to be 'good' or 'bad' (insert own defintions of good and bad here) what would you prefer to be the case and why?
This message has been edited by iano, 09-Feb-2006 11:17 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Madfish, posted 02-09-2006 7:51 PM iano has not replied
 Message 7 by U can call me Cookie, posted 02-10-2006 1:39 AM iano has not replied
 Message 8 by sidelined, posted 02-10-2006 3:31 AM iano has replied
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 Message 22 by Chronos, posted 02-10-2006 10:51 AM iano has replied
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (285318)
02-09-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


Hi, iano.
I guess if there was even a slight risk of an eternity of extreme badness, I would prefer oblivion. (I am an atheist, in case you didn't remember, heh.)

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 49 (285323)
02-09-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


Give me nothingness. I'll have plenty when this ride is over.

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 4 of 49 (285324)
02-09-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
02-09-2006 6:58 PM


"Do you want to go home empty handed or take what's in the mystery box... bear in mind the mystery could be bad as well as good"?
I'll choose oblivion... no existance = no pleasure or pain or perception of oblivion.
ooops meant to reply to iano...
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 02-09-2006 07:28 PM

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Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 49 (285329)
02-09-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


Sign me up for oblivion as well.
I think an eternal existence would get boring after a few thousand years, regardless of how good that existence was. It certainly doesn't help if it's a terrible existence.
This message has been edited by Madfish, 02-09-2006 07:58 PM

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3973
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 6 of 49 (285372)
02-09-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Madfish
02-09-2006 7:51 PM


Roll snake eyes or natural
I note you didn't say anything about eternity, iano. Another life wouldn't have to mean a forever life, now would it? All the old stories say when some clever fellow starts making offers, the devil is in the details.
Oblivion sounds restful...but given the choice, I'd take my chances.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 7 of 49 (285391)
02-10-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


Whatever happens will happen. At the very least, hopefully, my questions will be answered.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 8 of 49 (285412)
02-10-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


endless numbers
I agree with Madfish on this one and a simple bit of the "math of eternity" can drive this home.
Eternal life 101 : You will live forever and never stop living.
Starts with year 1.
Then we measure in decades.
Now we go to centuries, millenia, epochs eras and eons.
With eons we shall start with a small value set at 100,000,000 years
Let us expand the scale of time now to crunch the numbers so to speak
100,000,000 million years times 100,000,000 years now passes to reveal an existance spanning 10,000,000,000,000,000 years.
Here we are taking the next step in the journey of eternity.
Ten million billion years have elapsed setting the next stage to our excursion. 10,000,000,000,000,000 times itself results in a new level
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years
Now we further outr odyssey to another realm {have you said wow to yourself yet?}
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
And again
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
One more time shall we ? Please?
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
years
This is the result of running in simple squaring of intial values a mere ten times.
Let us continue the pilramage with someting equivalent but easier on the eyes, Exponetial notation.
Our step ten number is expressed as 10^255. The high value placed on the number of particles in the known universe is a mere 10^87 to give you an idea off the size.
To ease things up and to take account of the vagueness of my original values such as epoch we shall reduce this to 10^100.
This number value actually has a name. It is called a googol.{ quick trivia tidbit. The search engine google is named after this but is slightly different because of an error in spelling.}
To quickly drive home the point here let us continue our steps up to and including 20 by taking 10^100 and squaring it.
10^10000 years step 11 squared{sq}
10^100000000 years step 12 sq
10^10000000000000000 years step 13 sq
10^100000000000000000000000000000000 years step 14 sq
10^10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
years step 15 sq
I am going to stop there, at fifteen and not twenty.
This exceedingly large number is less than a number known as a googleplex{ I am not making this up} which is represented as this exponential number here
10{10^100} years
Let us finish this with one final example of truly large number.
Factorials are a way of generating immense values that simple squaring of a number cannot match.
This is a sample of factorials of the numbers 0 through 20
1, 1, 2, 6, 24, 120, 720, 5040, 40320, 362880, 3628800, 39916800, 479001600, 6227020800, 87178291200, 1307674368000, 20922789888000, 355687428096000, 6402373705728000, 121645100408832000, 2432902008176640000, ... We write thus 0!,1!,2!,3! etc
You can see how fast they expand. Now take the googleplex and take the factorial of that in and this will be the final step in my demo here
10(10^100}!
If you can begin to appreciate this then here is the final note in tonights song.There is no scale large enough at all to even begin a journey which has no end.
Do you still think you would like to have endless existence my friend?

But I realize now that these people were not in science; they didn’t understand it. They didn’t understand technology; they didn’t understand their time. R.P. Feynman

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Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 9 of 49 (285415)
02-10-2006 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Madfish
02-09-2006 7:51 PM


Oblivion it is.
Madfish writes:
I think an eternal existence would get boring after a few thousand years, regardless of how good that existence was. It certainly doesn't help if it's a terrible existence.
I doubt that eternal torment - think of traditional Hell - could ever be called 'boring' in any meaningful sense of the word. I've tried to imagine the Devil coming over to me and saying, "Hello again. It's time for your 1042nd excruciatingly painful roast", and me, yawning, "Really? Oh well, if you must..."
As storylines go, somehow this one doesn't work for me. For the same reason, eternal bliss can never be boring either, by definition. Nerve-racking maybe, but not boring.
Now, 'oblivion' sounds quite peaceful actually. I'm in.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 10 of 49 (285430)
02-10-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
02-09-2006 6:16 PM


I cannot conceive of an eternal life in which I can both enjoy myself for eternity and continue to be myself. I therefor choose oblivion.

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Zawi
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 126
From: UK
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 11 of 49 (285432)
02-10-2006 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Jack
02-10-2006 6:29 AM


I have a sister who hates the idea of oblivion. She's so reluctant to let go of consciousness that she would rather spend an eternity in hell. Obviously I find her view quite hard to fathom, what with me being an oblivion kind of guy.
Perhaps though, in a conscious universe like ours, oblivion is an impossibility.
quote:
I cannot conceive of an eternal life in which I can both enjoy myself for eternity and continue to be myself.
Good point. If the afterlife took place on an Earthly paradise, would the brain be able to cope with one billion years worth of memories? It takes considerably less time for language itself to evolve. After ten thousand years, there's no way you'd still be yourself. Then again, what is self?

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iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 49 (285433)
02-10-2006 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by sidelined
02-10-2006 3:31 AM


Calling time on time
Eternal life 101 : You will live forever and never stop living.
Although no one could know what an afterlife might look or feel like until they get there, there is at least one model of it which excludes linear time as an intrinsic property of it. Whilst I don't think anyone living in linear time can get their head around the idea of eternity, the model gives little clue as to what its like. For a person living in eternity looking at time, our linear yesterday, today and tomorrow are all present tense for them.
I think it is reasonable to prefer oblivion to linear time life never ending. But is it preferable to a life of no time? It could be exciting with no time to dull things unto boredom
Do you still think you would like to have endless existence my friend?
I don't think it's a matter of choice to be honest. The OP just respects the views of athiests

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iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 49 (285434)
02-10-2006 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
02-09-2006 6:58 PM


A very sensible choice I think

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 49 (285435)
02-10-2006 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by sidelined
02-10-2006 3:31 AM


Re: endless numbers
Yea but 111,111x111,111=12345678987654321
Maybe eternity cannot be measured since it takes place where there is no time or distance. That means you could never get bored.
I personally have changed my thoughts about infinity, it doesn't exist in our demension, or our universe. The universe is measurable.
If the glue that holds together the universe (gravity) stops holding, then matter and anti-matter will cancel each other out, leaving nothing. Thus bringing the universe to a measurable end.
I find that people who do not believe in the after-life, always wish somehow to live on by the works they do, and leaving a name.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 02-10-2006 06:52 AM

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iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 49 (285437)
02-10-2006 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by riVeRraT
02-10-2006 6:51 AM


Re: endless numbers
I find that people who do not believe in the after-life, always wish somehow to live on by the works they do, and leaving a name
One does what one can and this is about all that is available. Although why someone who believes they are not going to exist would care about how they are viewed when they don't exist is a question worth asking.

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