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Author Topic:   Macroevolution Debate: DarkStar vs MrHambre
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1 of 20 (163525)
11-27-2004 4:50 PM


I suggest to ADMIN that they set up {MACROEVOLUTION DEBATE} as a {Great Debate} topic with DarkStar and MrHambre as the two debaters.

see http://http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=15&t=256&m=12#12 for the gauntlet being thrown down.

even though it will be hard to keep from commenting ....

This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-03-2005 19:57 AM


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-27-2004 4:58 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 3 by AdminJazzlover, posted 11-27-2004 4:59 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4751
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 20 (163533)
11-27-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-27-2004 4:50 PM


Defining the terms
It will take a bit of discussion to frame the debate. Percy will talk to them about it I'm sure.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2004 4:50 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2004 5:22 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 20 (163534)
11-27-2004 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-27-2004 4:50 PM


Are yhey willing to do this. If they do I have no problem authorizing it


Yo soy BoriCua Pa Que tu lo Sepas
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2004 4:50 PM RAZD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 11-27-2004 5:01 PM AdminJazzlover has responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4751
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 20 (163538)
11-27-2004 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminJazzlover
11-27-2004 4:59 PM


Rules
There need to be rules
Percy is the one who has run these before
I think we should wait till he suggests how to start it and run it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AdminJazzlover, posted 11-27-2004 4:59 PM AdminJazzlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminJazzlover, posted 11-27-2004 5:05 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 20 (163539)
11-27-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminNosy
11-27-2004 5:01 PM


Re: Rules
No problem


Yo soy BoriCua Pa Que tu lo Sepas
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 11-27-2004 5:01 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 6 of 20 (163547)
11-27-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
11-27-2004 4:58 PM


Re: Defining the terms
we could let DarkStar define the term for starters, otherwise we could end up with a lot of posts about how the definition isn't correct.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-27-2004 4:58 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4751
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 7 of 20 (163563)
11-27-2004 6:42 PM


MrHambre and Darkstar Only Please
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

This thread is ONLY for MrHambre and DarkStar to work out the terms of the debate. The eventual moderator can then help them formulate the opening post of the actual debate.

All others please refrain from posting.

This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-27-2004 06:44 PM


  
MrHambre
Member
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 8 of 20 (163669)
11-28-2004 11:19 AM


Terms of Debate
Iím eager to have a Great Debate with DarkStar, moderated by Percy or an admin of his choosing.

DarkStar has asserted here that We all know that there is no more scientific evidence to support macroevolution than there is to support creation, perhaps even less. I want to examine that claim and its implications.

I donít want to have this debate descend into name-calling and quote-mining. Iíd be glad to support my assertions with relevant citations. However, the discussion needs to remain focused on the issue of macroevolutionís basis in responsible scientific methodology.

regards,
Esteban Hambre

Edited to add link and quote

This message has been edited by MrHambre, 11-28-2004 03:28 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by AdminJazzlover, posted 11-29-2004 11:41 PM MrHambre has not yet responded

    
AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 20 (164030)
11-29-2004 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by MrHambre
11-28-2004 11:19 AM


Re: Terms of Debate
I agree.

When choosing a moderator it would be preferable to choose someone with admin status. the debateres should decide who they wish to have as moderator


Yo soy BoriCua Pa Que tu lo Sepas
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by MrHambre, posted 11-28-2004 11:19 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 10 of 20 (164616)
12-02-2004 8:40 AM


Bump for DarkStar
I sent DarkStar an e-mail on 11-29 to link him to this page, so he could discuss his terms for the Great Debate. I notice that he's been here and posted a couple of messages since then, but hasn't given any indication of continued interest in the debate.

I'd be glad to post the first message in the Great Debate, but I'd rather DarkStar let me know he's still up for the debate, he agrees to certain ground rules, and that he's satisfied with a particular definition of macroevolution. In the absence of any feedback from him, I don't want to jump the gun and later be accused of involving him in a debate in whose terms he had no say.

I'm going with the general definition of macroevolution offered in the EvC glossary of terms:

quote:
Evolution of taxa higher than the species level (for example, genera, families, orders, classes), commonly entailing major morphological changes.
Basically, the notion of common ancestry of all life on Earth, the concept of the Tree of Life envisioned by Darwin.

I'd like to see ten posts by each user, just to keep the debate from dragging on and to discourage pot-shot posting. I have no problem with Percy's suggestion of AdminJazzLover, and I'd like an evolutionist admin as a moderator too. I think Ned would be a good choice, but he may be more interested in the "Peanut Gallery" action.

I'm looking forward to getting the debate underway.

regards,
Esteban Hambre


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by DarkStar, posted 12-03-2004 11:54 PM MrHambre has responded

    
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 20 (165054)
12-03-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MrHambre
12-02-2004 8:40 AM


Re: Bump for DarkStar
I am still interested in this debate. My choice for moderator(s) is yet to be determined. Obviously no one who has shown an undue hostility towards me would be desired, so that would exclude both nosy and jar, but I do accept that you should choose the evo moderator, even if that means choosing nosy or jar, if that is your preference. I believe their should be two moderators, one evo and one id'er. The id'er I would have preferred is either TrueCreation or WillowTree but I haven't seen a recent post by either of them. I will continue to search for an acceptable candidate.


The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by MrHambre, posted 12-02-2004 8:40 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by MrHambre, posted 12-06-2004 9:53 AM DarkStar has responded
 Message 13 by Admin, posted 12-06-2004 10:47 AM DarkStar has responded
 Message 19 by TrueCreation, posted 01-01-2005 4:34 AM DarkStar has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 12 of 20 (165614)
12-06-2004 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by DarkStar
12-03-2004 11:54 PM


A Month of Evasion
Today marks one month since I challenged DarkStar to a debate concerning the scientific basis of macroevolution. Though he claims to be interested in the debate, he hasn't mentioned any terms except the choice of moderators. On even this matter he hasn't been able to make a decision.

I only bring this issue up repeatedly because DarkStar continues to use the signature explicitly referring to the "myth of macroevolution" not once but twice. His current avatar refers to evolution as a "fairy tale for grownups." Evidently, for someone so certain of the validity of his claim, he is reluctant to defend it in a public forum.

I have already proposed terms of debate: I want no name calling or quote mining; I agree with the definition of "macroevolution" offered in the glossary of this site; I expect the subject to be the consistent application of scientific principles in the theory of common descent; I think ten posts by each user is sufficient for a fair and vigorous debate; I think there should be an evolutionist moderator as well as a creationist one.

I'm ready to make the first move. If DarkStar would rather submit the first post, that's fine. However, it's starting to look like he's not confident enough in his claim that macroevolution is an unscientific myth to defend it in a debate. Methinks with his avatar and signature DarkStar doth protest too much.

regards,
Esteban Hambre


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DarkStar, posted 12-03-2004 11:54 PM DarkStar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by DarkStar, posted 12-08-2004 8:33 PM MrHambre has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 13 of 20 (165621)
12-06-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by DarkStar
12-03-2004 11:54 PM


Re: Bump for DarkStar
Hi DarkStar,

Assuming they agree, the moderators will be:

AdminJazzlover
AdminAsgara

It doesn't matter who begins the debate. Either you or MrHambre can begin the debate in Proposed New Topics, and once it's approved it'll be promoted to The Great Debate. The first post should set the stage for the debate, defining terms, setting context and clearly indentifying what is being asserted so that the pro and con positions are well defined.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DarkStar, posted 12-03-2004 11:54 PM DarkStar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by DarkStar, posted 12-08-2004 7:38 PM Admin has responded

    
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 20 (166348)
12-08-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Admin
12-06-2004 10:47 AM


Re: Bump for DarkStar
Admin
Director writes:


Assuming they agree, the moderators will be:

AdminJazzlover
AdminAsgara

Which admin is the evolutionist/darwinist and which is the creationist/Id'er?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Admin, posted 12-06-2004 10:47 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Admin, posted 12-08-2004 9:39 PM DarkStar has not yet responded

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 20 (166363)
12-08-2004 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by MrHambre
12-06-2004 9:53 AM


Re: A Month of Evasion
MrHambre writes:
Today marks one month since I challenged DarkStar to a debate concerning the scientific basis of macroevolution. Though he claims to be interested in the debate, he hasn't mentioned any terms except the choice of moderators. On even this matter he hasn't been able to make a decision.
DarkStar inserts: For this debate to work you will have to accept the fluctuation of my work and study schedules. There may be times when I am absent for a month or more and there may be times when I am able to visit two or three days in a row, time which cannot be used exclusively for this debate.
I only bring this issue up repeatedly because DarkStar continues to use the signature explicitly referring to the "myth of macroevolution" not once but twice. His current avatar refers to evolution as a "fairy tale for grownups." Evidently, for someone so certain of the validity of his claim, he is reluctant to defend it in a public forum.
DarkStar inserts: My signature and avatar are not going anywhere. You need not agree with them, just accept them as being my personal choice, a right we all share here at EVC.
I have already proposed terms of debate: I want no name calling
DarkStar inserts: Agreed, but let's include no veiled insults such as the highlighted remarks in your first two paragraphs.
or quote mining;
DarkStar inserts: Define quote mining so that there is no mistake as to what you consider quote mining. I shall accept your definition so long as it does not prohibit the use of any and all quotes, whether by creatonist, ID'er, evolutionist, or Darwinist.
I agree with the definition of "macroevolution" offered in the glossary of this site;
DarkStar inserts: I will expound on this at a later date so as to leave no confusion of what macroevolution means to me. Currently, my schedule should allow some free time on either wednesday or thursday of next week.
I expect the subject to be the consistent application of scientific principles in the theory of common descent;
DarkStar inserts: You will need to expound on this as I view a fair number of areas regarding the theory of evolution to be unscientific due to the inability to falsify and/or test using purely scientific means. I shall attempt to provide you with adequate examples and allow you to either agree or attempt to correct any perceived error in my thought process. Obviously, the final analysis of the correctness of my thought process is mine alone.
I think ten posts by each user is sufficient for a fair and vigorous debate;
DarkStar inserts: I agree.
I think there should be an evolutionist moderator as well as a creationist one.
DarkStar inserts: I agree.


The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by MrHambre, posted 12-06-2004 9:53 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by MrHambre, posted 12-09-2004 2:39 PM DarkStar has not yet responded

  
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