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Author Topic:   New member - Introduction, motivation & an opinion, Is this the right forum for me?
Nicked
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (196463)
04-03-2005 2:11 PM


OK, this is self indulgent but bear with me. I registered recently after spending weeks dipping in and out and reading through some of the threads (I already feel like I know some of the characters on here from previous forums, lol). Anyway, I couldn't really find anywhere else on here where I could just dip in and introduce myself so I thought what the heck. At the risk of getting banned on my first post, here it is!!!

It looks to me like most here are US citizens or at least from the Americas, and have a background or interest in Biology and Chemistry. Well I'm a Limey (English) with a university education in Mechanical Engineering, in addition I have a specific interest in a very specialist field of Metallurgy (I prefer not to divulge the field as it would easily reveal my identity). To be honest, I never really developed any appreciation for Biology or Organic Chemistry in my education (I touched on some fundamental Inorganic Chemistry as a byproduct of my degree). I know from what I have already read that it will be an education for me to have skilled Biologists and Chemists at my fingertips, maybe in some small way I can reciprocate with some Mechanical Engineering or Physics insights.

Anyway, cutting to the chase I have recently developed an interest in Biology and Chemistry primarily for political/social reasons. I want to "arm myself" with knowledge to counteract what I percieve (reiterate that this is a perception only) that religion, and particularly Fundamentalist Christianity, has embarked on what it sees as a fight for the hearts and souls of our children. It also appears to me that this is a battle, not of intellect, but of propoganda. I know you guys want to keep this forum strictly scientific so I will try to avoid this in future, if I fail then I understand the consequences from the forum rules, I just wanted to explain where I am coming from. I realise that my motives are not as pure as some of you guys but I feel my quest to understand the subject jusifies my presence here.

Am I in the right place?

{Added blank linkes between paragraphs. They make message reading easier. - Adminnemooseus}
{Edited for clarity ref message 2 of this thread. - Nicked}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-03-2005 01:37 PM

This message has been edited by Nicked, 04-03-2005 02:18 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-03-2005 2:44 PM Nicked has not yet responded
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 04-03-2005 3:48 PM Nicked has not yet responded
 Message 5 by mark24, posted 04-03-2005 3:51 PM Nicked has responded
 Message 9 by Ben!, posted 04-04-2005 2:22 AM Nicked has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3798
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2 of 17 (196473)
04-03-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nicked
04-03-2005 2:11 PM


Needs better topic title
To me, the intended theme of your message is vague. I'm also seemingly the main admin, as far as pushing for quality, descriptive, defining topic titles.

Please try to come up with a title title that will help define the theme of your message. You can edit the topic title by editing your message 1.

By the way, welcome to .

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3798
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3 of 17 (196480)
04-03-2005 3:36 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I was uncertain as to where to put this topic. I decided that it was a "Short Subject". As such, it should probably only have a short active lifetime before being closed.

Adminnemooseus

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-03-2005 02:39 PM


    
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 17 (196482)
04-03-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nicked
04-03-2005 2:11 PM


Hi and welcome. You mentioned "I know you guys want to keep this forum strictly scientific so I will try to avoid this in future, if I fail then I understand the consequences from the forum rules, I just wanted to explain where I am coming from." and that's something that's often misunderstood about EvC. It's not that it is strictly a science forum but rather that when in one of the science areas, or when making an assertion about scientific issues, you will be expected to use science and evidence to support your assertions.

There are plenty of places here where science takes a back seat to belief, just as there are areas here where belief carries no weight.

We hope you enjoy your stay here and look forward to learning from you.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 2640 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 17 (196483)
04-03-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nicked
04-03-2005 2:11 PM


Nicked,

Welcome!

Am I in the right place?

Most certainly. Many posters here hold relevant qualifications in the sciences that well places them to torpedo creationists. Also, you are in good company if you come from the UK, I would go so far to say that the British Isles are overrepresented here, rather than under.

What I thought was interesting about your qualifications were that you hold an engineering degree. And I must admit I thought, "oh no, another Intelligent Designer, here we go again". It seems engineers have a "special" insight, because they make complicated things, therefore complicated things must be made, the universe is complicated, therefore it was designed. Maybe its a Yank thing, but other posters here will back me up, there seems to be a disproportionate number of engineers that are ID'ers.

Anyway, waffling, welcome once again.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by nator, posted 04-03-2005 7:12 PM mark24 has not yet responded
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 Message 11 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 10:36 AM mark24 has responded

    
Nicked
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 17 (196529)
04-03-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mark24
04-03-2005 3:51 PM


Intelligent Design
Being new here, I had no idea there was a preponderance of pro-ID Engineers on the forums.

Hmmm... I'll agree that Engineers assemble technologies that appear complex. However, it's not that difficult to break a complex artefact down into a series of linked problems. Once the problems are broken down to manageable segments you just allocate them to the specialists and they engineer. The project then becomes a matter of deadlines and overviews at various levels of the team organisation. It's not rocket science (the research scientists did that 10 years earlier, before the technology was innovated).

I'm simplifying a bit here because as an Engineer I know how problems can drive you nuts when you're working with leading edge technologies. In mitigation I'll ask how many science papers do you see attributed to just a single person? They have teams to, so it's not just engineering! lol.

It's a peculiar happenstance that you should mention ID because I have been pondering it since reading the thread regarding evolution of a bicycle to a motor cycle in the scientific forums earlier today.
I'll most likely post in that forum when I've thought some more about it but I have been thinking about the activity of "designing" in relation to "evolution".

For instance, when humans design for function what are they actually doing? Does functional design appear to be intelligent when in fact it is actually a selection of the most appropriate option from a random set of solutions? For instance, I was thinking of the bicycle frame and how all the modern frames I see are triangular. What if I had no knowledge that triangular frames were the most "economic" solution that met the required parameters for function? I randomly go about making different shapes of frames sometimes improving, sometimes not, until I chance upon this solution and select it as the optimum. What have I done? All I have done is randomly mutate the frame design until I found an inevitable solution pre-determined by universal laws.

Again simplifying a little here but it seems to me that complexity is just a matter of what level of detail you view a problem from. For me the evolution of a complex living creature only looks complex when viewed from a high level, break the problems down and it's not so overwhelming.

Now I'm waffling! Thanks for the welcome.


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nator
Member (Idle past 2087 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 17 (196532)
04-03-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mark24
04-03-2005 3:51 PM


quote:
Maybe its a Yank thing, but other posters here will back me up, there seems to be a disproportionate number of engineers that are ID'ers.

HELLS, yes, that is completely true.


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1438 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 8 of 17 (196552)
04-03-2005 8:48 PM


Welcome
Hi, Nick, I`m interested in ancient metallurgy if you want to go down that path.F`rinstance, did the metal of the DSS Copper Scroll originate in Egypt? Apart from meteoric iron, were the Hittite deposits the first iron ores worked? Stuff like that. :D
    
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1067 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 9 of 17 (196605)
04-04-2005 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nicked
04-03-2005 2:11 PM


I know you guys want to keep this forum strictly scientific so I will try to avoid this in future

LOL keep reading. Notice how most of the current threads are in the "Coffee House" forum? Read that as NON-SCIENCE.

Anyway, the forum guidelines are about respect and presenting arguments and evidence where appropriate.

In other words... don't hold back! Let 'er rip!

Am I in the right place?

Hell yeah. Welcome, nice to meet you, and see you around the board!

Ben


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3798 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 10 of 17 (197112)
04-05-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mark24
04-03-2005 3:51 PM


Maybe its a Yank thing, but other posters here will back me up, there seems to be a disproportionate number of engineers that are ID'ers.

This does seem to be true on this board but doesn't line up with my experience in the real world. I've got an Electrical and Electronic Engineering Degree (from the UK) but worked in the US for five years or so back in the '80s and 90s. I worked with lots of Americans with Degrees (mostly EE but not all) and many of them were Christians - but all of them would have laughed at both ID and YEC.


The Tigers roared in Dublin - and I was there.
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 17 (198928)
04-13-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mark24
04-03-2005 3:51 PM


quote:
It seems engineers have a "special" insight, because they make complicated things, therefore complicated things must be made, the universe is complicated, therefore it was designed.

I don't expect this to be true, or even likely. Who are you thinking of?


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mark24
Member (Idle past 2640 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 12 of 17 (198947)
04-13-2005 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by contracycle
04-13-2005 10:36 AM


cont,

John Paul & Fred Williams spring immediately to mind, there were more, but I can't remember their names. I'm not the only onme who's spotted this.

Mark


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Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 13 of 17 (198976)
04-13-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MangyTiger
04-05-2005 10:42 PM


MangyTiger writes:

I've got an Electrical and Electronic Engineering Degree (from the UK) but worked in the US for five years or so back in the '80s and 90s. I worked with lots of Americans with Degrees (mostly EE but not all) and many of them were Christians - but all of them would have laughed at both ID and YEC.

For the first half of my career I would have said the same thing. Then, while I was working for a computer company (the only kind of company I've ever worked for) I started an internal debate on the "bible_study" email alias (we were on the Arpanet, but this was pre-web and pre-browsers) about Creationism and evolution. I was surprised to discover that a fair percentage of my fellow engineers were devout Creationists. Many didn't have any awareness of concepts like tentativity and believed that science had proven things like relativity but not evolution, which therefore had no validity. For them Genesis was the correct account concerning origins.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 17 (199013)
04-13-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
04-13-2005 2:04 PM


quote:
I was surprised to discover that a fair percentage of my fellow engineers were devout Creationists.

I think engineers are in the "sweet spot" of scientific disciplines where they only have a general education in such studies as:

1) biology
2) geology
3) genetics
4) experimental design

The areas listed above are areas rife with evidence for evolution, and most engineers, I would guess, are not well versed in these areas. Ask any engineer to define the theory of evolution and you are bound to get an answer that is not accurate, at least in my experience. Ask a person with a biology degree, or even a geology degree, and you will get an accurate and detailed definition of what evolution is.

I am participating on a board run by the aforementioned Fred Williams. He is incredulous that living dinosaurs would not falsify the theory of evolution. No amount of explaining has shifted his position, even after I explained that evolution does not require dinosaurs to go extinct. Oh well. EE's pump out some nice toys for us geeks to play with, so they aren't all bad.;)


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Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 15 of 17 (199018)
04-13-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Loudmouth
04-13-2005 5:31 PM


Loudmouth writes:

I am participating on a board run by the aforementioned Fred Williams. He is incredulous that living dinosaurs would not falsify the theory of evolution.

Has he brought up the Coelecanth yet?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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