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Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Mythology with real places & people | |||||||||||||||||||||
bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Peg writes in the Topic "Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood."
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times while Coragyps writes
Hmmm...that might be worth a thread - a comparison of the Iliad and Odyssey, with all the Real Places they mention, to the Pentateuch. I don't see a "glaringly obvious" difference, Peg. Where is it? Now then what is the point. Does one agree with Peg or with Coragyps or neither? Does mythology containing real places make it non-mythological. Even in modern writing , many fictitious stories contain real people & places ie: Gone with the Wind. Edited by bluescat48, : sp There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Frankenstein by Marry Shelley comes to mind. Does this mean the Monster actually existed and was created by Dr. Frankenstein?
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Son Member (Idle past 3829 days) Posts: 346 From: France,Paris Joined: |
I would agree with Coragyps. If you look at it, most written fictions are inspired by the real world (and I think they almost all take from the real worl to varying degrees).
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3237 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
An extreme case: The Lord of The Rings. There really are men and eagles and swords and things, so obviously, the entire story must be true, no?
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Bluecat,
Peg writes: the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times One of the initial problems I see with this statement is that, outside of that individual book, those people and dates have no mention anywhere else. So if you get rid of the one source, they got nothing. Outside of the Angels and Demons book, none of those people and those dated events mean anything. Same with the bible. I'd be curious as to how Peg gets past that obvious flaw in his/her logic...? - Oni "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Thanks for starting this up, Bluescat!
Let me expand a bit on my statement you quoted. Troy was held to be as mythical as Helen or Aphrodite until the 1860's, when the ruins were excavated and a city turned up. Many other places mentioned in Homer's two books have been identified with "real" places. There's a fairly recent paper (free here ) that even correlates a real solar eclipse, known to have occurred through orbital mechanics, with Odysseus' homecoming. Does that body of data prove that the Iliad and Odyssey are accurate history in every particular? I say no, of course not! It proves that storytellers are darn good at weaving realistic, convincing detail into their stories. And I challenge Peg or any other person who claims that the stories in the Bible are somehow "different" to show even a smidgen of any basis for that "difference" beyond "because I want it to be so." You can't do it.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
She is right that some are real ie; Ashurbanipal, Nebechanezzar, Cyrus, Xerxes, Augustus & Tiberias and such places as Gallilee, Judaea, Egypt, Jericho etc. But yes as to the Hebrew & Xtian people there is no corroborating evidence of their existence.
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Is it possible that you believe in the inerrancy of the bible simply because of your faith and not because of any logic or human reason?
When I come up with an argument, I always think it through several times and try to think of the flaws in my logic and counter arguments. In other words, I don't like to simply throw it out and hope for the best. To me, the statement that you made about the improbability of a fictional story telling about real places sounds too much like you're just desperately trying to find a reason, any reason, to believe in the bible. To me, if you had just sat back for a couple seconds and tried to think of a flaw of such a statement you would have immediately figured out that most stories in the fiction section of the library contain real places in real life. Even Star Wars tells of a real place... a galaxy far, far away. I should tell you a little bit about myself. I grew up christian fundamentalist. When I was in college, I had the most interesting philosophy professor. He was loud and obnoxious. But he did get his points across. I walked away from his classes having learned that if I don't criticize and ridicule my own ideas someone else will. And believe you me, every evidence, every argument, every idea, even every human thought has at least 2 ways to be viewed. If you can't interpret a statement more than 1 way, then it's not a comprehensible statement. For example, when I was little my father would occasionally tell me to go get something from the basement. Nothing bothered me more than when I asked 'where is it?' and he answered 'in the basement'. You could either interpret my question to mean where in the house is it or where in the basement is it? The fact that I was already going to the basement should be clue enough that the latter made more sense. The fundamentalist mindset that I was trapped in prevented me from critical thinking simply because every time I thought up of an argument for my cause I never bothered to give it a second thought and find the flaws. In philosophy debates, I used to make the argument that if you put a group of gay men on an island they wouldn't be able to breed. This, I argued, was reason enough that homosexuality was immoral. I was absolutely embarrass when someone finally told me straight in my face that (1) a group of straight men on an island wouldn't be able to breed either and (2) the argument bears absolutely no relevance to morality. I stopped making such a ridiculous argument after that. Don't rush into making "infallable" statements. Give it some thought first. Try to force yourself to see your "infallable" statement in a different light. Try to find the flaws in your argument. Criticize it. Ridicule it. Why? Because if you don't, we will. Edited by Taz, : Fixed the goddamn mother fucking grammars
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Does that body of data prove that the Iliad and Odyssey are accurate history in every particular? I say no, of course not! It proves that storytellers are darn good at weaving realistic, convincing detail into their stories. And I challenge Peg or any other person who claims that the stories in the Bible are somehow "different" to show even a smidgen of any basis for that "difference" beyond "because I want it to be so." You can't do it. Evidently they can't, no one has answered your challenge. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Im coming to this shortly.
stay tuned.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
4 days ago you said you would be coming to this topic shortly. Are you going to give some input?
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
My apologies for taking so long.
So we are comparing the so called 'mythical' bible, with the Iliad and Odyssey as per OP. The Ilias or Odysse are not historical documents nor were they recorded as such.On the other hand the OT was used, not only in worship, but to set legal parameters and to judge and to teach. the old testament was more then just a religious document, it was a part of the Isrealites everyday life. They were governed by its principles and laws in everything they did. The Law, which included the Genesis creation account, was read publicly to all men, women, and children. It was not considered a myth but real history. Also there is so much archeological evidence to back up the bibles accuracy in its descriptions of the land, of the nations and religions around them, in their battles and in their everyday practices...its just wrong to assume the bible is myth. To compare the Bible with the Iliad and Odysse is ludicrous.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Also there is so much archeological evidence to back up the bibles accuracy in its descriptions of the land, of the nations and religions around them, in their battles and in their everyday practices... Where, exactly, is all this "evidence" of battles, and captivities in Egypt, and glorious temples that Solomon built? There isn't any, Peg! The Odyssey describes all sorts of places around the whole Mediterranean with as much accuracy as Genesis does - why is a comparison "ludicrous?" Only because Peg wants the Bible to be TRVTH, that's why. "The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Here and upthread at the "Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood" topic, real places and
not(?) real places in the Bible has become an off-topic subtheme. the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
How many places visited during the Exodus have been shown to be real? Name a real person from any of the first five books of the Old Testament, and provide evidence that they were real. I'm going to close that other topic, at least for a while. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report Technical Problems Here: No. 1 Report Discussion Problems Here: No. 2 Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073] Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source
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