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Author Topic:   Mythology with real places & people
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 1 of 289 (509562)
05-22-2009 12:31 PM


Peg writes in the Topic "Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood."
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
while Coragyps writes
Hmmm...that might be worth a thread - a comparison of the Iliad and Odyssey, with all the Real Places they mention, to the Pentateuch. I don't see a "glaringly obvious" difference, Peg. Where is it?
Now then what is the point. Does one agree with Peg or with Coragyps or neither? Does mythology containing real places make it non-mythological. Even in modern writing , many fictitious stories contain real people & places ie: Gone with the Wind.
Edited by bluescat48, : sp

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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 Message 6 by onifre, posted 05-22-2009 8:01 PM bluescat48 has replied

AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 289 (509571)
05-22-2009 1:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 289 (509588)
05-22-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluescat48
05-22-2009 12:31 PM


Frankenstein by Marry Shelley comes to mind. Does this mean the Monster actually existed and was created by Dr. Frankenstein?

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Son
Member (Idle past 3829 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 4 of 289 (509591)
05-22-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluescat48
05-22-2009 12:31 PM


I would agree with Coragyps. If you look at it, most written fictions are inspired by the real world (and I think they almost all take from the real worl to varying degrees).

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
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Message 5 of 289 (509593)
05-22-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Son
05-22-2009 4:41 PM


An extreme case: The Lord of The Rings. There really are men and eagles and swords and things, so obviously, the entire story must be true, no?

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 289 (509612)
05-22-2009 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluescat48
05-22-2009 12:31 PM


Hi Bluecat,
Peg writes:
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
One of the initial problems I see with this statement is that, outside of that individual book, those people and dates have no mention anywhere else. So if you get rid of the one source, they got nothing.
Outside of the Angels and Demons book, none of those people and those dated events mean anything. Same with the bible.
I'd be curious as to how Peg gets past that obvious flaw in his/her logic...?
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bluescat48, posted 05-22-2009 12:31 PM bluescat48 has replied

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 289 (509613)
05-22-2009 8:30 PM


Thanks for starting this up, Bluescat!
Let me expand a bit on my statement you quoted. Troy was held to be as mythical as Helen or Aphrodite until the 1860's, when the ruins were excavated and a city turned up. Many other places mentioned in Homer's two books have been identified with "real" places. There's a fairly recent paper (free here ) that even correlates a real solar eclipse, known to have occurred through orbital mechanics, with Odysseus' homecoming.
Does that body of data prove that the Iliad and Odyssey are accurate history in every particular? I say no, of course not! It proves that storytellers are darn good at weaving realistic, convincing detail into their stories. And I challenge Peg or any other person who claims that the stories in the Bible are somehow "different" to show even a smidgen of any basis for that "difference" beyond "because I want it to be so." You can't do it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by bluescat48, posted 05-25-2009 7:56 AM Coragyps has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 289 (509618)
05-22-2009 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
05-22-2009 8:01 PM


She is right that some are real ie; Ashurbanipal, Nebechanezzar, Cyrus, Xerxes, Augustus & Tiberias and such places as Gallilee, Judaea, Egypt, Jericho etc. But yes as to the Hebrew & Xtian people there is no corroborating evidence of their existence.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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 Message 6 by onifre, posted 05-22-2009 8:01 PM onifre has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 289 (509619)
05-22-2009 11:32 PM


Message to Peg
Is it possible that you believe in the inerrancy of the bible simply because of your faith and not because of any logic or human reason?
When I come up with an argument, I always think it through several times and try to think of the flaws in my logic and counter arguments. In other words, I don't like to simply throw it out and hope for the best.
To me, the statement that you made about the improbability of a fictional story telling about real places sounds too much like you're just desperately trying to find a reason, any reason, to believe in the bible. To me, if you had just sat back for a couple seconds and tried to think of a flaw of such a statement you would have immediately figured out that most stories in the fiction section of the library contain real places in real life. Even Star Wars tells of a real place... a galaxy far, far away.
I should tell you a little bit about myself. I grew up christian fundamentalist. When I was in college, I had the most interesting philosophy professor. He was loud and obnoxious. But he did get his points across. I walked away from his classes having learned that if I don't criticize and ridicule my own ideas someone else will. And believe you me, every evidence, every argument, every idea, even every human thought has at least 2 ways to be viewed. If you can't interpret a statement more than 1 way, then it's not a comprehensible statement.
For example, when I was little my father would occasionally tell me to go get something from the basement. Nothing bothered me more than when I asked 'where is it?' and he answered 'in the basement'. You could either interpret my question to mean where in the house is it or where in the basement is it? The fact that I was already going to the basement should be clue enough that the latter made more sense.
The fundamentalist mindset that I was trapped in prevented me from critical thinking simply because every time I thought up of an argument for my cause I never bothered to give it a second thought and find the flaws.
In philosophy debates, I used to make the argument that if you put a group of gay men on an island they wouldn't be able to breed. This, I argued, was reason enough that homosexuality was immoral. I was absolutely embarrass when someone finally told me straight in my face that (1) a group of straight men on an island wouldn't be able to breed either and (2) the argument bears absolutely no relevance to morality. I stopped making such a ridiculous argument after that.
Don't rush into making "infallable" statements. Give it some thought first. Try to force yourself to see your "infallable" statement in a different light. Try to find the flaws in your argument. Criticize it. Ridicule it. Why? Because if you don't, we will.
Edited by Taz, : Fixed the goddamn mother fucking grammars

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 10 of 289 (509806)
05-25-2009 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
05-22-2009 8:30 PM


Challenge
Does that body of data prove that the Iliad and Odyssey are accurate history in every particular? I say no, of course not! It proves that storytellers are darn good at weaving realistic, convincing detail into their stories. And I challenge Peg or any other person who claims that the stories in the Bible are somehow "different" to show even a smidgen of any basis for that "difference" beyond "because I want it to be so." You can't do it.
Evidently they can't, no one has answered your challenge.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 05-22-2009 8:30 PM Coragyps has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 289 (509904)
05-26-2009 12:52 AM


Im coming to this shortly.
stay tuned.

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by bluescat48, posted 05-30-2009 10:19 AM Peg has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 289 (510362)
05-30-2009 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
05-26-2009 12:52 AM


Bump for Peg
4 days ago you said you would be coming to this topic shortly. Are you going to give some input?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 05-26-2009 12:52 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 13 by Peg, posted 05-31-2009 8:11 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 289 (510440)
05-31-2009 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
05-30-2009 10:19 AM


Re: Bump for Peg
My apologies for taking so long.
So we are comparing the so called 'mythical' bible, with the Iliad and Odyssey as per OP.
The Ilias or Odysse are not historical documents nor were they recorded as such.
On the other hand the OT was used, not only in worship, but to set legal parameters and to judge and to teach. the old testament was more then just a religious document, it was a part of the Isrealites everyday life. They were governed by its principles and laws in everything they did. The Law, which included the Genesis creation account, was read publicly to all men, women, and children. It was not considered a myth but real history.
Also there is so much archeological evidence to back up the bibles accuracy in its descriptions of the land, of the nations and religions around them, in their battles and in their everyday practices...its just wrong to assume the bible is myth.
To compare the Bible with the Iliad and Odysse is ludicrous.

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 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 05-31-2009 9:36 AM Peg has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 14 of 289 (510448)
05-31-2009 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
05-31-2009 8:11 AM


Re: Bump for Peg
Also there is so much archeological evidence to back up the bibles accuracy in its descriptions of the land, of the nations and religions around them, in their battles and in their everyday practices...
Where, exactly, is all this "evidence" of battles, and captivities in Egypt, and glorious temples that Solomon built? There isn't any, Peg! The Odyssey describes all sorts of places around the whole Mediterranean with as much accuracy as Genesis does - why is a comparison "ludicrous?"
Only because Peg wants the Bible to be TRVTH, that's why.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 15 of 289 (510729)
06-03-2009 4:36 AM


Bump - This topics theme is polluting another topic
Here and upthread at the "Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood" topic, real places and
not(?) real places in the Bible has become an off-topic subtheme.
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
How many places visited during the Exodus have been shown to be real?
Name a real person from any of the first five books of the Old Testament, and provide evidence that they were real.
I'm going to close that other topic, at least for a while.
Adminnemooseus

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